New square D QO tandem breakers for the butcher - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum
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Old 10-02-2019, 09:13 AM   #1
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Default New square D QO tandem breakers for the butcher

Brand new modular home in NYC area built in 2018. Factory did all the wall wiring (plugs, switches etc.). Part of the package was a 120/240 1ph 3W Square D QO panel with 42 ckts. The foundation was poured for the basement level and the mod sections were placed on top. The electrical contractor had to install the supplied panel and create a new service. The factory only had 4 spaces left in the panel for basement circuits. I was hired to correct issues found by the buyers home inspector.

Note. Whenever I see a brand new installation (everything is new) and I see wire nuts inside the panel....


Well here is how they solved adding extra breakers.




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Old 10-02-2019, 11:03 AM   #2
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Are these the tandem breakers with two tiny toggles side by side?

I've been using those for ~10 years or so....
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Old 10-02-2019, 11:14 AM   #3
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Tandem breakers are expensive. I don’t use them much anymore. I will first recommend adding a sub panel. If the customer does not want to pay for that, I will tell them that I could double up some circuits that don’t use much power. If they end up tripping the breakers on those circuits later, then it proves that they need a subpanel. I love getting the call, “you were right, when can you come and install that subpanel”.
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Old 10-02-2019, 11:30 AM   #4
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So far as the wirenuts in the panel... is it in fact a "new" install when these are changes made after the factory?
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Old 10-02-2019, 11:58 AM   #5
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So far as the wirenuts in the panel... is it in fact a "new" install when these are changes made after the factory?


The panel is cut in and installed on site. The modular sections are quick connect romex and there is a bundle long enough to extend to the new panel location. Some of the AFCI breakers had no neutral. This panel uses their breakers that snap onto the neutral rail.


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Old 10-02-2019, 12:02 PM   #6
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Tandem breakers are expensive. I don’t use them much anymore. I will first recommend adding a sub panel. If the customer does not want to pay for that, I will tell them that I could double up some circuits that don’t use much power. If they end up tripping the breakers on those circuits later, then it proves that they need a subpanel. I love getting the call, “you were right, when can you come and install that subpanel”.


Tandem breaker is about $15. Square D tandem breakers have a hook in the back to secure then to the panel rail. Only the bottom 5 or so spots allow you to use them. This is to prevent you from exceeding 42 over current devices in a panel


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Old 10-02-2019, 12:31 PM   #7
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The panel is cut in and installed on site. The modular sections are quick connect romex and there is a bundle long enough to extend to the new panel location. Some of the AFCI breakers had no neutral. This panel uses their breakers that snap onto the neutral rail.
Right... so its up to the factory to leave enough 'tail' to terminate in the panel? Opening up a wall and re-feeding the home run would probably upset the factory certification of that circuit or wall assembly.

That QO panelboard's neutral bars are on either side of the main breaker at the top. Doesn't the AFCI's white wire terminate up there?

My 32 space QO panel is rated for 54 circuits. I don't mind the newer tandems. I don't often need them though.
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Old 10-02-2019, 12:38 PM   #8
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Right... so its up to the factory to leave enough 'tail' to terminate in the panel? Opening up a wall and re-feeding the home run would probably upset the factory certification of that circuit or wall assembly.



That QO panelboard's neutral bars are on either side of the main breaker at the top. Doesn't the AFCI's white wire terminate up there?



My 32 space QO panel is rated for 54 circuits. I don't mind the newer tandems. I don't often need them though.


The breaker body snaps into the neutral rail so there are no tails on afci and gfci breakers.


The factory doesn’t install the panel. The foundation and basement level are built on site. The contractor provides a service and installs the provided panel.

The tandem breakers installed by the electrician were heavily modified to fit the panel.

As of NEC 2008 all new panels have to have rejection features built in so a user cannot put more breakers in than its rating


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Old 10-02-2019, 12:42 PM   #9
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Was that only 2008? I thought it was long before then.

You can buy cheater tandems to fit in almost any panel, but they cost more.
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Old 10-02-2019, 12:54 PM   #10
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The breaker body snaps into the neutral rail so there are no tails on afci and gfci breakers.


The factory doesn’t install the panel. The foundation and basement level are built on site. The contractor provides a service and installs the provided panel.

The tandem breakers installed by the electrician were heavily modified to fit the panel.

As of NEC 2008 all new panels have to have rejection features built in so a user cannot put more breakers in than its rating

Interesting. I have not seen that style QO AFCI or GFCI yet.

I get the factory doesn't install the panel. But the electrician's scope of work is just the panel, not running the circuits. He's left to tie in factory-approved pre-wired circuits. I was only citing a possible reason... but I missed the breaker damage/modification until you pointed it out.

My panel is about 2015 vintage. Tandems fit fine.
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Old 10-02-2019, 06:56 PM   #11
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QO tandems are $50 and not subject to the QO buying program discount.

That's an insane amount of circuits in that panel, I bet most of them could be doubled up.
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Old 10-03-2019, 08:06 AM   #12
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Tandem breaker is about $15. Square D tandem breakers have a hook in the back to secure then to the panel rail. Only the bottom 5 or so spots allow you to use them. This is to prevent you from exceeding 42 over current devices in a panel


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true in US, in canada we dont have that hook so we can fill a 40 spaces panel with 40 tandem if we want !
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Old 10-03-2019, 08:21 PM   #13
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Plugs.
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Old 10-03-2019, 09:35 PM   #14
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Plugs.
Up here, if you call someone a Plug, it's an insult ... Kinda like 'tool'

You need to say sorry now
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Old 10-04-2019, 02:17 PM   #15
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Yet another reason NOT to use QO panels.

SqD QO CTL tandems are $20. Non-CTL tandems are $50. WTF?
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Old 10-04-2019, 02:23 PM   #16
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Yet another reason NOT to use QO panels.

SqD QO CTL tandems are $20. Non-CTL tandems are $50. WTF?
The price of cheaters shouldn't matter to all of you people who follow the code, which is everyone on this forum, or so you say. Watch it or Dennis will get mad.
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Old 10-04-2019, 02:27 PM   #17
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Plugs.


Here is a pic from the driveway. Note the GFI receptacles at 12 and 25’ above grade


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Old 10-09-2019, 06:01 PM   #18
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Here is a pic from the driveway. Note the GFI receptacles at 12 and 25’ above grade


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At some point, there were decks outside those sliding glass doors.
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Old 10-09-2019, 06:02 PM   #19
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At some point, there were decks outside those sliding glass doors.


Houses are brand new from factory.


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Old 10-09-2019, 06:07 PM   #20
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Sometimes those cookie cutter houses don't come from the factory with all the accessories, such as decks. And no one tells the assembly line electrician any different.
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