[chicken steve]

I'd like some advice. Albeit none of you may be lawyers (or just choose not to admit it :whistling2 , perhaps you've worn similar shoes out in the field.

I've had a number of ongoing jobs where, i try and keep the $$$ ahead of , or at least neck and neck with the work. Unfortunatly there are always those sorts who'll fall short of these expectations, so we'll simply abandon their jobs until they make good, or the usual legal paths are taken.

But many times this leaves the work incomplete, and incomplete work can be a hazard. In the past i've pulled my permits with the state, along with written notification detailing the incomplete, and therefore non compliant issues.


The general jist being a release of obligation to finish the job. And so the owners either exist in, or otherwise own a structure of questionable safety status.

Now i'd like to think the above senario also releases me and/or my company from reproach, but of course that would be naive.

Ah, that ever litigious cloud looming over the life of an EC, eh? Being it almost halloween, a good scare might be in order......so I invite the ET armchair legal counsel to chime in with their stories of 1/2 done jobs and their outcome(s)



~CS~.

 

[Rollie73]

One of the drawbacks(or benefits,depending on your POV) of being a primarily commercial EC is that the money is never on par with the work.

The amount of work done is almost always way ahead of the money. We bill for the work at first of the month and get paid at the end of the month so....
The good part about it(I guess) is that we are never eligible for final payment until a letter of acceptance from the AHJ is issued so we very rarely end up with unfinished work.......however that can leave us in a bind if the bills have been overlooked by the GC or owner that we are working for.

I guess it means we can always put a higher lien on the building though.

 

[Switched]

Well....I once watched Law and Order, followed by LA Law, so I feel that I am completely qualified to provide legal counsel for those who need it. I also have watched lawyers on Youtube, it all looks pretty easy to me!

I don't think I have ever thought of the consequences of not completing a job, as I have yet to have that happen doing service work. Now though, I think getting a lawyer involved with this in a contract would be a great idea. It definitely seems a can of worms, especially in Cal-litigious-afornia

 

[chicken steve]

In my experience, an AHJ usually writes out a list of no-no's to be addressed , or writes out energizing or occupancy permit(s) essentially sanctioning a 'completed' job

However, i have had AHJ's , on my request of leaving a job and detailing it's incompletion to them, write what i would say is an 'outgoing' document.

I suppose this could work if the job owners decided to fire me as well....

In my view, i've informed the powers that be of job status, and by proxy safety status, which they can take up with either the next lucky sparky and/or job owners

Considering the onus of safety out of my hands at this point would be the heart of my query.....

~CS~

 

[Rollie73]

I would have to think that if the AHJ has issued an energize order fully knowing what outstanding items you have documented and left behind for the next poor unsuspecting sap.....then it would likely fall into the category of any other normally completed and inspected job.

That idea being that we as sparkies have no control over what the owner does with or to the electrical system installed on the premises after we leave it.


Just my obviously un-lawyerly opinion.

 

[Bootss]

front load progress payments, more timely progress payments, job cancellation penalty ?fees? maybe like cancellation fees similar to cancel an early cell phone service.

 

[chicken steve]

I would have to think that if the AHJ has issued an energize order fully knowing what outstanding items you have documented and left behind for the next poor unsuspecting sap.....then it would likely fall into the category of any other normally completed and inspected job.

The local AHJ's have issued 'conditional occupancy' permits here for 'incomplete' installations Rollie

It's basically up to them to deal with the term 'incomplete' when it falls in their lap , representing the public good

That idea being that we as sparkies have no control over what the owner does with or to the electrical system installed on the premises after we leave it.


Just my obviously un-lawyerly opinion.

Agreed, along with the yoke of liability being taken off our shoulders

~CS~

 

[flyboy]

Well....I once watched Law and Order, followed by LA Law, so I feel that I am completely qualified to provide legal counsel for those who need it. I also have watched lawyers on Youtube, it all looks pretty easy to me!

I don't think I have ever thought of the consequences of not completing a job, as I have yet to have that happen doing service work. Now though, I think getting a lawyer involved with this in a contract would be a great idea. It definitely seems a can of worms, especially in Cal-litigious-afornia

I would say you are woefully unqualified to represent the client in this matter.

I, on the other hand, have watched every episode of Perry Mason, The Defenders, Matlock and Paper chase.

Not only that, I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

That is why I would never offer any free advice nor would I even consider taking on this case without a $2,000 retainer.

Which I am more then willing to accept at this time should the client desire to retain my services.

 

[rewire]

I would say you are woefully unqualified to represent the client in this matter.


That is why I would never offer any free advice nor would I even consider taking on this case without a $2,000 retainer.

.

I will do it for 1999.00:laughing:

 

[chicken steve]

I do have a lawyer.....so understand my undying gratitude to the ET armchair legal consultant dream team doesn't quite extend itself to my wallet


Now, anyone who's been an EC for an appreciable amount of time here has had to walk off a job , who's liable?

~CS~

 

[flyboy]

I will do it for 1999.00:laughing:

Bottom Feeder...

 

[rewire]

I do have a lawyer.....so understand my undying gratitude to the Earmchair legal consultant dream team doesn't quite extend itself to my wallet


Now, anyone who's been an EC for an appreciable amount of time here has had to walk off a job , who's liable?

~CS~

I have never walked off a job. I have had jobs that I was unable to complete do to financial issues. I always left the job in a safe state ,coves on the panel no exposed live wires etc. According to my legal begeal never say you walked off a job .

 

[chicken steve]

I have never walked off a job. I have had jobs that I was unable to complete do to financial issues.

semantics rewire....

I always left the job in a safe state ,coves on the panel no exposed live wires etc.

ok, for the sake of further debate, you may have closed up, but there's no lights installed

is that safe for occupying?

~CS~

 

[flyboy]

ok, for the sake of further debate, you may have closed up, but there's no lights installed

is that safe for occupying?

~CS~

What is there to debate? There are so many possibilities.

If the condition exists on the third floor and someone is stumbling around in the dark and falls through an open hole in the floor left open from the framer then no, it isn't (wasn't) "safe for occupying". In which case you could be held liable for no lighting fixtures, the framer for leaving the hole open, the GC for hiring you two guys and the AHJ for allowing this condition to exist without waiting for someone to cordon off the area. Who knows?

If they bring a flashlight with them and successfully maneuver through the space without the lighting is it safe now? If they light the place up with candles is that safe? I would suggest not. I don't know. What if the flashlight stoped working just as they got to the edge of the hole and he didn't see it before they fell in? Is the flashlight manufacturer liable? Or the battery manufacturer? Are they going to name you, the framer, the GC and AHJ liable? I don't know, maybe.

If the place is occupied did they receive a C of O? Or did they just move in without it?

Here's my point. There is no point. There is no answer.

You want us to tell you something that no one has the ability to answer.

A court and jury of your peers are going to decide who is "liable" and who is going to pay the penalty for being found liable.

...assuming of course something serious enough happens that someone may be held "liable" in the first place.

 

[10492]

ok, for the sake of further debate, you may have closed up, but there's no lights installed

is that safe for occupying?

~CS~

It can't be occupied, legally, with a U&O. You can't get a U&O without inspections, and you can't get them without having everything finished.


So, everything without a U&O is not safe to occupy.

 

[macmikeman]

keyless porcelean light fixtures for the balance of the job, $1.33 tr recep's . Blank plates for all appliances except the required laundry 20 amp outlet. $.33 single pole light switches . Pass final inspection. Lein and forclose

 

[nrp3]

Just be careful. Lot of sleepless nights over the past few weeks. Did everything right on one of these remodels and the people that bought it were trying to scam the seller and dragged all of us subs through the scrutiny of the state and local officials. Having a good lawyer makes a big difference.

 

[bobelectric]

keyless porcelean light fixtures for the balance of the job, $1.33 tr recep's . Blank plates for all appliances except the required laundry 20 amp outlet. $.33 single pole light switches . Pass final inspection. Lein and forclose

Dream job: Weatherman in Honolulu,Hi.

 

[chicken steve]

Here's my point. There is no point. There is no answer.

You want us to tell you something that no one has the ability to answer.

A court and jury of your peers are going to decide who is "liable" and who is going to pay the penalty for being found liable.

I'd say you're entirely spot on that we exist in some ever litigious and liable universe until some authority imparts a decision FlyGuy.

And so, I, like any other prudent EC, utilize the system to isolate my company from that dark cloud of legalese

But the system itself is full of holes as well, and i wonder how many of you reading (so far) can chime in on that

I could easily prattle on anecdotally, but would synopsize on 'squeaky wheel' to sum up my experiences.....the devil, as usual, being in the details

~CS~

 

[chicken steve]

keyless porcelean light fixtures for the balance of the job, $1.33 tr recep's . Blank plates for all appliances except the required laundry 20 amp outlet. $.33 single pole light switches . Pass final inspection. Lein and forclose

How's not passing anything, AND having the state grant an OC sit with you Mac?

~CS~