I use 2 pole arc faults in new installs already. 14/3 home run is faster/cheaper. 2 pole arc fault breaker is cheaper than 2 single pole breakers.
2 pole Arc fault breakers
I'm doing a simple panel swap and had a discussion with inspector yesterday where he brought up something to consider. Of course I'll need to update breakers to arc fault for those which are required however he mentioned in an older home you'll have ccts which are ran with 14/3 and he said you can't use an arc fault on 3 wire ccts. So what would the best course of action here? What are other people doing if this situation comes up? Is there anyway to make it code compliant without running a whole new home run.
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Why are you putting in arc fault breakers for a panel swap? There is no CEC requirement to do so if the original panel didn’t have them.I'm doing a simple panel swap and had a discussion with inspector yesterday where he brought up something to consider. Of course I'll need to update breakers to arc fault for those which are required however he mentioned in an older home you'll have ccts which are ran with 14/3 and he said you can't use an arc fault on 3 wire ccts. So what would the best course of action here? What are other people doing if this situation comes up? Is there anyway to make it code compliant without running a whole new home run.
Is there a specific provincial amendment in your province to upgrade breakers to arc fault when doing a panel swap?
This is what the inspector requires and it's my first permit I've ever pulled on my FSR so I'm reluctant to argue..Why are you putting in arc fault breakers for a panel swap? There is no requirement to do so if the original panel didn’t have them.
I think you're in BC, right?
Here's the information bulletin. I've had safety officers say that because this is not a directive, it's not enforceable. I wonder how many are actually following it.
Requirements for upgrading electrical systems | Technical Safety BC
6a. and 6b. are saying that (in general) additions to branch circuits have to meet current code and untouched branch circuits are grandfathered.
7-17. describes the specifics even for old wiring.
9. Describes GFCI's needed for existing ungrounded circuits. Quite a few 2-pole GFCI breakers needed in some older houses.
13. Describes AFCI's needed for bedrooms. I think this bulletin was written during the first AFCI code cycle.
AFCI isn't mentioned anywhere else.
Here's the information bulletin. I've had safety officers say that because this is not a directive, it's not enforceable. I wonder how many are actually following it.
Requirements for upgrading electrical systems | Technical Safety BC
6a. and 6b. are saying that (in general) additions to branch circuits have to meet current code and untouched branch circuits are grandfathered.
7-17. describes the specifics even for old wiring.
9. Describes GFCI's needed for existing ungrounded circuits. Quite a few 2-pole GFCI breakers needed in some older houses.
13. Describes AFCI's needed for bedrooms. I think this bulletin was written during the first AFCI code cycle.
AFCI isn't mentioned anywhere else.
Don’t argue, but ask the question. They must have verbiage somewhere if they actually require it. Seems odd to require it though as it isn’t required anywhere else in the country that I know of for a simple panel swap.This is what the inspector requires and it's my first permit I've ever pulled on my FSR so I'm reluctant to argue..
Here is Ontario’s answer from their bulletin 26-29-5
Question 3
If a service or panel is replaced, relocated, or upgraded and there are no receptacles added to the existing branch circuit wiring, is arc-fault circuit protection required to be installed for the existing branch circuits?
Answer 3
No, when the service or panel is replaced, relocated, or upgraded, arc-fault protection is not required to be installed. The current Code requirement for arc-fault protection does not retroactively apply to the existing branch circuit wiring unless the branch circuit is being extended with additional receptacles. See Question 2 of this Bulletin for direction when adding receptacles to existing branch circuits.
ESA recommends that arc-fault protection be provided for existing wiring.
Thank you I'll call back Monday and ask for some time of clarification. This is in BC btw. Also let's say it was required would 2 pole afci breakers be the way to go?Don’t argue, but ask the question. They must have verbiage somewhere if they actually require it. Seems odd to require it though as it isn’t required anywhere else in the country that I know of for a simple panel swap.
Here is Ontario’s answer from their bulletin 26-29-5
Question 3
If a service or panel is replaced, relocated, or upgraded and there are no receptacles added to the existing branch circuit wiring, is arc-fault circuit protection required to be installed for the existing branch circuits?
Answer 3
No, when the service or panel is replaced, relocated, or upgraded, arc-fault protection is not required to be installed. The current Code requirement for arc-fault protection does not retroactively apply to the existing branch circuit wiring unless the branch circuit is being extended with additional receptacles. See Question 2 of this Bulletin for direction when adding receptacles to existing branch circuits.
ESA recommends that arc-fault protection be provided for existing wiring.
Yes I'm in BC. Sorry so is this saying it is required for a simple panel swap or not?I think you're in BC, right?
Here's the information bulletin. I've had safety officers say that because this is not a directive, it's not enforceable. I wonder how many are actually following it.
Requirements for upgrading electrical systems | Technical Safety BC
6a. and 6b. are saying that (in general) additions to branch circuits have to meet current code and untouched branch circuits are grandfathered.
7-17. describes the specifics even for old wiring.
9. Describes GFCI's needed for existing ungrounded circuits. Quite a few 2-pole GFCI breakers needed in some older houses.
13. Describes AFCI's needed for bedrooms. I think this bulletin was written during the first AFCI code cycle.
AFCI isn't mentioned anywhere else.
I'd say no, and it's pretty standard practice not to AFCI existing circuits. Just pointing you to the only wording that I know of that talks about AFCI for a service upgrade in BC. As usual, interpretation and enforcement are a bit gray. I think your inspector has overstepped a bit, or maybe he's talking about the GFCI requirement?
This is a bit off topic, but a thought has struck me. If two pole afci breakers are cheaper than buying two single pole afci breakers, then what about just buying two pole afci breakers and prying off the listed handle tie (so you can use it somewhere else ) for situations where you need to place more than one single afci? Tell me this is a good idea since I just roughed in a fancy house and will be needing to go to the store for afci's...............
We swap them all the time , regulars out regulars back in and the inspectors are happy. Could be a local requirement or inspector’s requirement.Don’t argue, but ask the question. They must have verbiage somewhere if they actually require it. Seems odd to require it though as it isn’t required anywhere else in the country that I know of for a simple panel swap.
Here is Ontario’s answer from their bulletin 26-29-5
Question 3
If a service or panel is replaced, relocated, or upgraded and there are no receptacles added to the existing branch circuit wiring, is arc-fault circuit protection required to be installed for the existing branch circuits?
Answer 3
No, when the service or panel is replaced, relocated, or upgraded, arc-fault protection is not required to be installed. The current Code requirement for arc-fault protection does not retroactively apply to the existing branch circuit wiring unless the branch circuit is being extended with additional receptacles. See Question 2 of this Bulletin for direction when adding receptacles to existing branch circuits.
ESA recommends that arc-fault protection be provided for existing wiring.
Don’t double pole breakers have an internal trip that will make them both trip regardless if the handle tie is there? I always assumed the handle tie is there only for manual use as internally they are also tied.This is a bit off topic, but a thought has struck me. If two pole afci breakers are cheaper than buying two single pole afci breakers, then what about just buying two pole afci breakers and prying off the listed handle tie (so you can use it somewhere else ) for situations where you need to place more than one single afci? Tell me this is a good idea since I just roughed in a fancy house and will be needing to go to the store for afci's...............
If that’s the case then it would cause some annoyed customers loosing 2 circuits every time instead of just the regular annoyance of single tripping breakers that AFCI cause.
Yes, they are internally connected. The grief of the customer is overshadowed by the annoyance of the purchase of the damn things in the first place..............Don’t double pole breakers have an internal trip that will make them both trip regardless if the handle tie is there? I always assumed the handle tie is there only for manual use as internally they are also tied.
If that’s the case then it would cause some annoyed customers loosing 2 circuits every time instead of just the regular annoyance of single tripping breakers that AFCI cause.
Reality: I think I get a breaker tripped call about zero now, compared to lots of calls when they were 2 or 3 series design way before now. (yellow trip buttons series). Seriously, I haven't had a call back for several years and don't expect one any time soon.
I have been avoiding MWBC 14/3 or 12/3 like the plague. With all the electronics and new technology out now , it is sometimes better to avoid them. Many plans and specifications now say that they are not acceptable. If one circuits trips then both circuits will go down. There is a use for MWBC at times but I try to only use dedicated neutral circuits. Many times when working in a panel I find that somebody installed twin breakers and installed both the red and black on the same twin. Do I fix it or leave it alone? Remember, " No good deed goes unpunished." .
The thing I am thinking about is even though I would not have a mwbc , technically I would if I joined two independent circuits together because there is only one neutral lug on the two pole breakers, so I guess I won't be attempting this 2 dollar savings........... I am pretty sure if it was a plug on neutral type it would handle the neutral amperage of two circuits fine because the contact bar is the same for all the plug on neutral circuit breakers regardless of amperage designation.
@Strider434, another issue with the request of this inspector is there is no current code requirement to have a MWBC on a two pole breaker unless it is for the same device like a split-receptacle.
Older homes commonly used 3-wire MWBC’s for two separate circuits and had them on two single breakers which was compliant then and still is now. except now there is the AFCI issue which makes it a PIA so we don’t use MWBC’s as much anymore in residential.
Again just another reason to not need to upgrade to new code just for a panel swap.
Older homes commonly used 3-wire MWBC’s for two separate circuits and had them on two single breakers which was compliant then and still is now. except now there is the AFCI issue which makes it a PIA so we don’t use MWBC’s as much anymore in residential.
Again just another reason to not need to upgrade to new code just for a panel swap.
Just to clarify he didn't actually request a 2-pole afci breakers but he did request existing bedroom ccts be afci protected he only brought up that if they are ran with 3 wire which is typical in older homes you wouldn't be able to use an AFCI breaker, I don't see why however. I'd assumed a 2 pole afci would be the way to do this properly.@Strider434, another issue with the request of this inspector is there is no current code requirement to have a MWBC on a two pole breaker unless it is for the same device like a split-receptacle.
Older homes commonly used 3-wire MWBC’s for two separate circuits and had them on two single breakers which was compliant then and still is now. except now there is the AFCI issue which makes it a PIA so we don’t use MWBC’s as much anymore in residential.
Again just another reason to not need to upgrade to new code just for a panel swap.
Ok.Just to clarify he didn't actually request a 2-pole afci breakers but he did request existing bedroom ccts be afci protected he only brought up that if they are ran with 3 wire which is typical in older homes you wouldn't be able to use an AFCI breaker, I don't see why however. I'd assumed a 2 pole afci would be the way to do this properly.
I would still ask for the requirement in writing that says existing circuits need to be upgraded when only doing a panel swap because it will change the cost of a panel swap by quite a bit.
And again not to argue with him. Just ask the question and ask for the regulation, amendment or whatever it in writing so you can price these jobs accordingly.
Your inspector is inventing rules. The requirement for bedrooms disappeared two code cycles ago, maybe more. Like eddy said, don’t argue with the inspector, just ask him for clarification and code rules. Don’t be scared to question an inspector even if you’re new at this. You might find an inspector respects you more if you question him rather than eating his BS.Just to clarify he didn't actually request a 2-pole afci breakers but he did request existing bedroom ccts be afci protected he only brought up that if they are ran with 3 wire which is typical in older homes you wouldn't be able to use an AFCI breaker, I don't see why however. I'd assumed a 2 pole afci would be the way to do this properly.
Chances are your competition isn’t doing this. So you really do have to question this. The information bulletin I shared above was written a few code cycles ago and the reference to AFCI’s in the bedroom is for receptacles that are “added”.
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