Electrician Talk banner
1 - 7 of 7 Posts

·
Light Bender
plumber
Joined
·
6,677 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Here is a good one. (Mainly looking for a Canadian rule but the same applies in the US I think)

I know that it is a great idea to have someone other than the installer inspect and verify a new fire alarm installation or a change to an existing fire alarm system, and almost every fire alarm job I have ever done had “3rd party inspection required” in the specs, but can someone show me the actual code or standard that says it is a must?

I don’t think there is such a code or standard.
 

·
Band Member
DIYer Extrodinaire
Joined
·
7,773 Posts
It's in CAN/ULC-S537-13 (Verification of Fire Alarm Systems)

I don't have the doc't, but found this on a google search ....

Font Rectangle Handwriting Art Pattern
 

·
Light Bender
plumber
Joined
·
6,677 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
It's in CAN/ULC-S537-13 (Verification of Fire Alarm Systems)

I don't have the doc't, but found this on a google search ....

View attachment 156309
Thanks EMT, I know about that. And I have that standard

That is in the preface of the standard, not part of the actual standard. I’ve had discussions with engineers on that because they tried saying it is a code. The preface is the introduction to the standard, not the actual standard. No where in the actual standard does it quote chapter and verse of a rule saying this is a must.

Also it says “contemplates”. What does that mean exactly?

That is the only place I have ever seen this stated.

ETA.

Preface
noun
  1. an introduction to a book

Contemplates
verb
3rd person present: contemplates
  1. look thoughtfully for a long time at.
 

·
Band Member
DIYer Extrodinaire
Joined
·
7,773 Posts
Even though this is also in the preface, they do say as long as the inspection is done by a "qualified" person.
So technically, if the installer has the training , they could also verify?

Maybe it's because usually the installers are the young guys, and the guy with the training/experience just does the commissioning ?
That, or because it is in the spec ?
 

·
Light Bender
plumber
Joined
·
6,677 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Even though this is also in the preface, they do say as long as the inspection is done by a "qualified" person.
So technically, if the installer has the training , they could also verify?

Maybe it's because usually the installers are the young guys, and the guy with the training/experience just does the commissioning ?
That, or because it is in the spec ?
So on a new build, electricians install the system (no one has to be certified) and it is verified by the manufacturer rep who is certified, but the manufacturer rep is also involved in the installation, so is that third party verification? Not really.

Where I have had to deal with this is for a small job, like relocating a few devices in an occupied building. To do that you have to be certified, no problem. But then the engineer asks for third party verification as per the ULC, but it is not in the ULC Standard. In the ULC and fire code it just says you have to be certified so why do I have to bring in someone else? Of course if it is in the spec then you have to, but if it is not a spec request, then it meets ULC and fire code for me to verify it.

It’s an old myth that has been taught by CFAA so they can get the work, but there is no actual code or standard that says it’s mandatory that I can find.
 

·
Registered
Retired Low Voltage installer (Fire, Access, Security)
Joined
·
348 Posts
Or was the "3rd party" requirement intended to address programmable systems? I'm talking about the polling systems where you identify each point as Pull, Smoke, Duct, Supervisory, Audible, Visual, Relay, etc.
 

·
Light Bender
plumber
Joined
·
6,677 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Or was the "3rd party" requirement intended to address programmable systems? I'm talking about the polling systems where you identify each point as Pull, Smoke, Duct, Supervisory, Audible, Visual, Relay, etc.
Around here, Some manufacturers are proprietary and you must use them because they will not give out or sell the rights to their programming. Simplex, Siemens and Edwards for instance.

Other manufacturers like Notifier, Mircom etc will give or sell the rights to their programme so private companies can do the programming on their systems.

But if you are just moving devices, no programming is required but they must be verified as per the ULC. That is where I have had general contractors request I bring in someone else to verify, but I’m certified and it’s not required. Again if it’s spec’d then there is no choice.
 
1 - 7 of 7 Posts
Top