[Joe Tedesco]

210.12(B)Dwelling Units.

All 120-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sun rooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways , or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination-type installed to provide protection of the branch circuit. :thumbup:

 

[JohnJ0906]

Unless the manufacturers have insured that the nusance trip problems are solved, I am against expanding this requirement.
Or, of course, they can pay for our time for the numerous service calls.

 

[Joe Tedesco]

Look at the video here:

Look at the video here:

http://www.firemarshals.org/mission/residential/ignition_sources/electrical.asp

I am sure it will make you think about the issues associated with the subject of AFCI's

 

[JohnJ0906]

Are we being provided with a decent product? Are we being pushed into using product that don't have the bugs worked out? Who's footing the bill for the call-backs?

I feel very comfortable INSISTING that these concerns be addressed by both UL and the various manufacturers before this is forced into law.

If AFCIs work as adverised, they are an absolute BOON to safety-on this I do not disagree-I have just had too many call backs on properly installed AFCIs on properly wired cicuits.

 

[itsunclebill]

I suspect that when contractors reach the frustration saturation point and start returning ALL the AFCIs from panels, that is, 30 or 40 at a time, and do it on a VERY regular basis that the rule, or product, will change.

I personally intend to be responsible for starting this trend at several distributors. Large shipments of "problem" AFCIs back to the manufacturer that require extensive testing to weed out the bad from the good will definitely get attention. What's more, they can't prove the unit WASN'T causing a problem. I plan to build in pricing for this contingency should the requirement happen.

Now, I certainly wouldn't suggest anybody else do this:whistling2:

Guess maybe I ought to add that my attitude would be different if I was convinced that the AFCI isn't a solution looking for a problem, and that the first 2 or 3 minutes I spent with a GFCI convinced me they were a good idea and I used them lots of places before code required it. Of course I never returned over 30% of the GFCIs I installed, either............

 

[oldnslow]

The same thing occured when GFCI's were introduced, many return trips to replace defective devices.
If we were able to charge our warranty labor back to the manufacurers they would probably wait a code cycle and improve their products before code changes.

 

[JohnJ0906]

I think what we all want it to provide SAFE electrical power for our customers. For us to do that, we need decent products to install.

Also, some consumer education is warranted. Requiring a new product, with possible unseen problems, needs to be put before the general public. I just feel that the manufacturers, UL, NFPA, etc., just drop this into our laps with no consideration for the time and cost. How about selling AFCIs for NO profit? If they are so wonderful, then the PR would be worth it to them.

 

[JohnJ0906]

Look at the video here:

http://www.firemarshals.org/mission/residential/ignition_sources/electrical.asp

I am sure it will make you think about the issues associated with the subject of AFCI's

Propaganda. Pure and simple.

 

[Speedy Petey]

There is not much I can add to the replies given here.

How many code cycles did it take to mandate GFCIs in all the areas required today?

And now we have a proposed almost across the board AFCI requirement after only four code cycles?
This REEKS of corruption and lobbying as much as anything else.

 

[JohnJ0906]

By the time I entered the trade (1990) GFCIs were fairly well established. The kinks were worked out before my time. My question is, was there this much controversy when they were introduced, and was there as much nusance tripping?

 

[wireman3736]

I here about all these call backs but I believe there has only been one time I was called back, a variable speed vacuum cleaner would cause the af to trip if it was started an any speed but high. after it started on high it would run on any speed. any product will have trial and error, you can't test for every situation in a fixed room environment. 95% of my af breakers are square D, I don't know if this makes a difference.

 

[JohnJ0906]

Doesn't Vermont already require AFCI protection most everywhere in a dwelling?

 

[wireman3736]

Doesn't Vermont already require AFCI protection most everywhere in a dwelling?

Yes all livable rooms.

 

[macmikeman]

That product still does not deliver what the makers of it say it does, that is the truth. But I would be happy to take away any of those houses you fella's are going to pass up on because the rules have changed. I'll put em in, charge plenty for them of course, make profit, go sailing, while the rest of the complainers fight each other over non dwelling jobs since they got so mad about putting in all those ark fault breakers. :laughing:

 

[JohnJ0906]

Yes all livable rooms.

Judgeing by your previous comment, you're not seeing many problems, then?

 

[Mountain Electrician]

I'll put em in, charge plenty for them of course, make profit, go sailing, while the rest of the complainers fight each other over non dwelling jobs since they got so mad about putting in all those ark fault breakers. :laughing:

Amen. I agree this reeks of lobbying, etc., but so what? It is what it is, and no amount of complaining will change that. May as well just go with the flow, make sure you add enough money for the odd call back, and go on. I expect there will be a period of adjustment and some frustration making the HO understand why it costs more to wire his house, but at the end of the day if it saves one life IMO its worth it. Plus, the more mark up the merrier!

 

[Speedy Petey]

First off I am not a real "Go with the flow" kind of guy. I do NOT do real well with being "lobbied" or having things forced upon me.
I am also quite stubborn and do just sit back and roll over when (IMO) unjustifiable requests are made/demanded.

It is also real easy to say "Just charge for 'em and allow for call backs". I think this is an unrealistic statement in many parts of the country.
How many of us would lose jobs over the several hundred dollar, possibly $1k plus, difference created by installing AFCIs everywhere?

I WILL NOT install these things until I am forced to by law.
http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/unjustifiable

 

[JohnJ0906]

What concerns me is the lack of consumer education. When legitimate, licenced electrical contractors raise prices for something not understood by the public, there will be more people using "trunk slammers". This results in LESS safety, not more.

 

[Mountain Electrician]

I WILL NOT install these things until I am forced to by law.

Do you think they don't work? If they prevent one house fire, isn't it worth it? As long as you get paid to install them, so what? It's natural to not want to do something you don't agree with, but we are foced to every day, (sales tax, stupid traffic laws, etc.) and at least this has the possibility of actually saving lives. For myself, I haven't had many trouble calls for AFCI's , so I don't have a real negative attitude towards them. Someone else's experience may be different, but as long as they may save lives, why not use them? If they will soon be law, why not offer the customer the choice to have them put in before that? IMO, the biggest thing that seperates electricians from the other trades is the fact that we are directly responsible for peoples safety and lives. If the plumber screws up, its a nasty mess and very unpleasent indeed. If we screw up, someone can die. If there is a product that helps protect peoples lives, I want to use it!

 

[Speedy Petey]

Even the experts and lobbyists have not provided any real proof. All we get from them is that they "can" save lives. And this is coming from the folks trying to sell them to us.
A new house is the last place that needs AFCIs. They were originally intended to protect appliance cords and extension cords. A new home has so many receptacles that x-cords are almost extinct. Also, wired properly a new home will NOT have any "arc faults" in the building wiring.

90% of the fires you hear about there is an automatic "We believe the fire was electrical in nature". Of course it was. And typically it starts from an old overloaded extension cord. Or a space heater that tipped over and didn't stop running.
So now the lobby groups have more than enough scare tactic ammunition (with little to no proof) to say "WE NEED these things!" ("And we can sell them to you!")



How many things can we do to "save lives"? Use 10 amp breakers on every branch circuit? Use GFIs everywhere in the house?
How about outlawing sharp corners? No more concrete floors in case we slip and fall?

We are OVER lawing ourselves in this country! I think we all need to wear slippers and live in padded rooms.