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.... be an EGC ---and--- a GEC at the same time?

I installed a 20a circuit for a treadmill this morning. When I opened the subpanel in the basement, I found this:




Neutral was bonded to the can (lower right), and the 6/3 that feeds the panel has no grounding conductor.

But there is a #4 solid bare connected to the ground bar:



It goes down and jumps the water meter, than back up into the wall next to the stairs... where I presume it goes back to the main panel in the garage.

So............ the GEC that goes to the water meter is also being used as the ECG for this subpanel. :eek:
 

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Here's to the jag offs that twist the grounding conductors together.
That's what happens when apprentices cut them to land them on the neutral bar on the right side of the panel, then the foreman tells them they need to install a ground bar on the left side, and all the grounds are too short. So they twisted them all together with another one long enough to reach the ground bar. :rolleyes:
 

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.... be an EGC ---and--- a GEC at the same time?

I installed a 20a circuit for a treadmill this morning. When I opened the subpanel in the basement, I found this:




Neutral was bonded to the can (lower right), and the 6/3 that feeds the panel has no grounding conductor.

But there is a #4 solid bare connected to the ground bar:



It goes down and jumps the water meter, than back up into the wall next to the stairs... where I presume it goes back to the main panel in the garage.

So............ the GEC that goes to the water meter is also being used as the ECG for this subpanel. :eek:
The EGC and the GEC are totally different animals and are for different functions.
 

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Looks like they went for a TT system. Only problem is they forgot the branch GFCIs. That and the fact the NEC has a beef with TT grounding.
 

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Look at 250.121 An equipment grounding conductor cannot be used as a grounding electrode conductor however I have not found the converse. I can only assume it is true but you know what happens when we ass u me
 

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I just noticed that the 2014 allows the equipment grounding conductor to be a grounding electrode conductor if it is sized accordingly etc. I suspect it must be run with the feeders.

250.121 Use of Equipment Grounding Conductors. An
equipment grounding conductor shall not be used as a
grounding electrode conductor.

Exception: A wire-type equipment grounding conductor installed
in compliance with 250.6(A) and the applicable requirements
for both the equipment grounding conductor
and the grounding electrode conductor in Parts II, III, and
VI of this article shall be permitted to serve as both an
equipment grounding conductor and a grounding electrode
conductor
 
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I just noticed that the 2014 allows the equipment grounding conductor to be a grounding electrode conductor if it is sized accordingly etc. I suspect it must be run with the feeders.
Instead of adding the exception, they should have deleted the rule. You could never use a combination EGC/GEC unless you complied with the rules for both conductors and that is what the exception says. The exception brings us back to how the code worked prior to 2011 when the rule prohibiting using the EGC as GEC.

The deal breaker, when using ferrous raceways and a combination EGC/GEC is the bonding rule in 250.64(E).
 

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For extending an existing GEC, I have used an exothermic weld. But I saw a guy use an intersystem grounding bus for this purpose. That's not compliant is it ?
 

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480sparky said:
That's what happens when apprentices cut them to land them on the neutral bar on the right side of the panel, then the foreman tells them they need to install a ground bar on the left side, and all the grounds are too short. So they twisted them all together with another one long enough to reach the ground bar. :rolleyes:
Why would the neutrals need to be installed on the left?
 

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For extending an existing GEC, I have used an exothermic weld. But I saw a guy use an intersystem grounding bus for this purpose. That's not compliant is it ?
Thats an interesting method, and a good question. I'd be interested in knowing if the code allows this.

I usually just bug off a ground rod or something nearby (like building steel in commercial).
 

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For extending an existing GEC, I have used an exothermic weld. But I saw a guy use an intersystem grounding bus for this purpose. That's not compliant is it ?
not compliant; GEC's must be one solid length although exo-welding is permit-able.
 

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Look at 250.121 An equipment grounding conductor cannot be used as a grounding electrode conductor however I have not found the converse. I can only assume it is true but you know what happens when we ass u me
I imagine a GEC cannot be used as a EGC because of 250.4(b)(4).
 

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not compliant; GEC's must be one solid length although exo-welding is permit-able.
ONLY to the first grounding elctrode. The GEC to the supplementary GE's do not have to be one continous length, you are permitted to bug off the first GE to each additional electrode.
 

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ONLY to the first grounding elctrode. The GEC to the supplementary GE's do not have to be one continous length, you are permitted to bug off the first GE to each additional electrode.
When you say "Bug" what are you using to do this ? I usually will run the rod, and the CW to the grounding bus, in two separate runs.
 

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When you say "Bug" what are you using to do this ? I usually will run the rod, and the CW to the grounding bus, in two separate runs.
Any listed clamp for the GE that you are tapping off of to hit the next GE.

Ex. - when doing a service upgrade, most older homes water bond is at the water heater. I will hit the cold water line where it enters and land it on a ground rod with an acorn. I only take one ground into the meter, and then just tie the rest together.
 
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