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Control Techs/Technicians and Technologists Vs Licensed Electricians

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Hello,

What do you think the difference of Control Techs/Technicians and Technologists Vs Licensed Electricians are?

Do you think that their work overlaps? One is licensed to perform electrical contracting work in ontario and one is not. Does this make one more limited? One required a 3 year advanced diploma, and the other requires 5 years of apprenticing.

What happens if an employer directs a Control Tech who is unlicensed to perform electrical contracting work? EG. installing electrical equipment at a client. For instance a panel shop asks the panel builder to build the panel at the client site including running power for the install of that panel, or install all the field wiring and devices without a license. Or add PLC's to all the company's cabinets.

Are control techs exempt from an electrical license to perform electrical contracting work in commercial and industrial/ home automation?

It is strange that a 3 year advanced diploma in Electrical Technology cant count towards a electrical license in ontario. But trade school and experience can count toward the advanced diploma.


I worked for a Licensed Electrical Contractor, who would send me out as a field contractor, and to wire panels and electrical devices at client sites, I also worked for an unlicensed electrical contractor in "automation" who also sent me to client sites to install electrical equipment and devices. Both I did unlicensed and against ESA regulations. Both times I complained to the ESA and the MSTD, and both times I was told that I should not be doing it, but they wernt going to stop me or the employer and that no fines or charges would be laid. Therefore licensing of electricians is not enforced, and a licensed electrical contractor is not a requirement and that their field workers do not need to be apprentices or journeymen, they can all be control techs.. Furthermore, construction companies use general labourers to do the electrical work, such as splicing and crimping service lines, and installing services, or transformers, and again no fines or charges.
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industrial E,I&C
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Why does this same argument sound familiar.....
Same guy with same problem.

Hes trying to justify the fact he quit/fired a job that was a shoe into the trade. There was a lot of ways he could of skinned this cat and ended up getting what he wanted but he used the sled hammer approach then doubled down by reporting the company to the authorities.

Locally hes screwed with the small contractors as they talk and even big company's that would be head hunting someone like him probably won't take the risk on someone who like's to file reports.
 

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Power distribution and controls
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Much of your questioning needs to be brought to the local AHJ. The laws, rules and customs are different sometimes by county, for sure by state.

The other part of the issue is "what do you want to do?"

Personally I like variety, the differences in jobs and scope is what keeps me interested.
I knew a guy that was a jouneyman for the IBEW that worked at Palo Verde (largest Nuke in the USA). All he did for 9 years was run conduit. Another friend pulled wire. I would have gone nuts with a job like that.
 

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Define "advanced diploma" because in my mind advanced and diploma don't go together.
It's a three year program at a technical college that you can do right after finishing high school.
Much of your questioning needs to be brought to the local AHJ. The laws, rules and customs are different sometimes by county, for sure by state.
I don't agree with how he has handled the situation but it is a fact that since 2018 the AHJ in his province has stopped enforcing the law that requires certain trades to be sufficiently qualified. He has brought it to their attention and they have stated that they will do nothing about it.
 

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I don't agree with how he has handled the situation but it is a fact that since 2018 the AHJ in his province has stopped enforcing the law that requires certain trades to be sufficiently qualified. He has brought it to their attention and they have stated that they will do nothing about it.
The Electrical Safety Authority (ESA) will not do anything about it except pass it along to Skilled Trades Ontario (STO) or the Ministry of Labour (MOL). The ESA basically only looks to see if the work was done by a Licensed Electrical Contractor (LEC) and if there were permits taken out. That is the only illegal activity ESA will go after, they do not enforce trade licensing in Ontario.

We have told the OP a number of times how the system works and he seems to refuse to believe us. He seems to fail to realize that in Ontario you don't need to be an electrician or electrician apprentice to work in an industrial establishment; all you need is to be deemed "competent". Having a diploma as some sort technician in most cases may deem the person competent. The issue is the guy is searching for a 309 apprenticeship and he can't get one and he feels he should get one to do the work he is doing and his employer kicked him to the curb for complaining about it.

Both the STO and the MOL likely have deemed him competent based on his credentials to work in an industrial establishment, so they are not going to anything about it and he is bitter about it.

Cheers
John
 

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Electrical contractor 37 years. Electrical inspector 2 years
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Much of your questioning needs to be brought to the local AHJ. The laws, rules and customs are different sometimes by county, for sure by state.

The other part of the issue is "what do you want to do?"

Personally I like variety, the differences in jobs and scope is what keeps me interested.
I knew a guy that was a jouneyman for the IBEW that worked at Palo Verde (largest Nuke in the USA). All he did for 9 years was run conduit. Another friend pulled wire. I would have gone nuts with a job like that.
I bet the guy running conduit for years did it perfectly, but could he wire a bird house?
 

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Electrical contractor 37 years. Electrical inspector 2 years
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It seems that up in the OP's area they have a redundant bureaucracy so they might be trying to quietly retire the regulations. If someone is perfectly capable of doing one task that spills over into another classification why prohibit him or her unless they need three people to do a one person job.
 

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The Electrical Safety Authority (ESA) will not do anything about it except pass it along to Skilled Trades Ontario (STO) or the Ministry of Labour (MOL). The ESA basically only looks to see if the work was done by a Licensed Electrical Contractor (LEC) and if there were permits taken out. That is the only illegal activity ESA will go after, they do not enforce trade licensing in Ontario.

We have told the OP a number of times how the system works and he seems to refuse to believe us. He seems to fail to realize that in Ontario you don't need to be an electrician or electrician apprentice to work in an industrial establishment; all you need is to be deemed "competent". Having a diploma as some sort technician in most cases may deem the person competent. The issue is the guy is searching for a 309 apprenticeship and he can't get one and he feels he should get one to do the work he is doing and his employer kicked him to the curb for complaining about it.

Both the STO and the MOL likely have deemed him competent based on his credentials to work in an industrial establishment, so they are not going to anything about it and he is bitter about it.

Cheers
John
You know the rules in ontario better than I do. What I meant is that even if he was correct in thinking that he needed a 309a license, the MOL/STO have not been enforcing these requirements for several years now. Has that changed recently?
 

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I graduated Electrical/Electronics Engineering Technology (3 year full time course) way back in 1986. The course covered things like plc's, motors, electronics, computers.

Got a job at a local electrical contractor that did construction, motor winding, repairs/troubleshooting. They were just getting into plc's and drives, which was part of the reason I was hired.

After working there 5 years, doing repairs in the shop and repairs/troubleshooting in the field (at first helping an electrician/technologist and eventually solo after getting some skills) I decided I should get my license.

Since I had the technologist degree, I only had to take 2 code courses (industrial and commercial). When I completed those courses I was able to write for the 442A industrial license.

So at least at that time, the degree allowed you to skip all the regular in class training. I was also told I could have done the license after 1 year instead of 5. I think it worked out better getting 5 years of skills before writing the test (which was easy to pass with on the job training and previous schooling).

At this point I am a 1 man shop doing installations/repairs/troubleshooting and one of the few LEC's in Ontario with only the 442A license to qualify me. I can write for the 309A (did the trade equivalency assessment from OCOT) but have no desire to work in peoples houses or do big construction jobs. Industrial breakdowns are good money when you can get them up and running again.

I don't know if they still allow you to skip the schooling when you have the degree, or shave off your hours while apprenticing, but it's worth checking into that, instead of getting worked up about working solo. You would be better served working and getting your license once you can find a decent place to work.
 

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There is tons of scummy contractors who do this. Before I got my apprenticeship I worked as a labour for a year. I did everything from panel changes to lighting retro kits. After a year I wanted to be signed he simple said no. Instead getting all bent out of shape about it I took the experience I was exposed to and used it to my advantage 5 years later I’m now a licensed 309a journeyman. And if you find a contractor he can write off some of your hours if you have the skill set your saying you do. I’m in Ontario and the market is hot right now. So I can’t see you not being able to find a job and get registered.
 

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There is tons of scummy contractors who do this. Before I got my apprenticeship I worked as a labour for a year. I did everything from panel changes to lighting retro kits. After a year I wanted to be signed he simple said no. Instead getting all bent out of shape about it I took the experience I was exposed to and used it to my advantage 5 years later I’m now a licensed 309a journeyman. And if you find a contractor he can write off some of your hours if you have the skill set your saying you do. I’m in Ontario and the market is hot right now. So I can’t see you not being able to find a job and get registered.
Ratios are the real issue, not the available work. The ratios are still skewed to an archaic approach to education and training. If there were an opportunity for a Journeyperson to supervise more than one apprentice, I think there would be more opportunities to get them registered. The government seems to be more interested in completing Trade Equivalencies with foreign workers then making it better for Canadian / Ontarians to get the opportunities they are seeking.

Who do you work for in Fonthill? We might be neighbours LOL!

Cheers
John
 

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Ratios are the real issue, not the available work. The ratios are still skewed to an archaic approach to education and training. If there were an opportunity for a Journeyperson to supervise more than one apprentice, I think there would be more opportunities to get them registered. The government seems to be more interested in completing Trade Equivalencies with foreign workers then making it better for Canadian / Ontarians to get the opportunities they are seeking.

Who do you work for in Fonthill? We might be neighbours LOL!

Cheers
John
I used to work for Fonthill electric, I now work for bcr there in welland. I used to live on Pelham street heading towards st Catherine’s area. I recently bought a house in thorold south. You run datawise right/ teacher at the college ?
 

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Yes that is me. I see BCR building by the fairgrounds... never see any activity and never see any trucks anywhere... thought maybe they were a panel shop or some sort of equipment builder.
Two of my business partners lives in Thorold South... it is a small world indeed.

Cheers
John
 
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