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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
In Article 100, titled Definitions, of the 2020 Edition of the National Electric Code, the definition of premises wiring includes "wiring from the service point" to the outlets.
The other definitions are:
service: The conductors and equipment connecting the serving utility to the wiring system of the premises served.
service conductors: The conductors from the service point to the service disconnecting means.
service conductors, overhead: The overhead conductors between the service point and the point of first connection to the service-entrance conductors at the building or other structure.
service point: The point of connection between the facilities of the serving utility and the premises wiring.
service drop: The overhead conductors between the serving utility and the service point.
service equipment: The necessary equipment, consisting of a circuit breaker(s) or switch(es) and fuse(s) and their accessories, connected to the serving utility and intended to constitute the main control and disconnect of the serving utility.

In practice, the service point is never located closer to the home than the connection with the service-entrance conductors and never located further than the connection of the conductors for a public road with the conductors for a private road. All of these questions are regarding NEC definition only.
1. Does this mean that the service conductors are always part of the premises wiring and never part of the service, making the term an oxymoron?
2. Are service-entrance conductors (strictly defined term by the electrical industry globally, so no ambiguity here) a subset of service conductors?
3. The most-common case of older neighbourhoods is where the service point is defined as the point where the utility's overhead wiring meets the service-entrance conductors. In this case:
a. Does this mean that the overhead service conductors do not exist?
b. Does this mean that the service drop is always part of the service and never part of the premises wiring?
c. Does this mean that the utility wiring over the front yard is the service drop?
d. Is the difference between service drop and overhead service conductor distinguished by who owns it?
e. Is (d) why overhead service conductors and service drops are listed under different definitions?
f. Is (a) to (e) the same case with underground utility wiring connecting to the service-entrance conductors in a comparable situation?
4. Since the service equipment is located downstream of the service point, is it part of the premises wiring or is it part of the service?
 

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Begin with the definition of "premises wiring"
at this point you can say everything else is service conductors
the dividing line is defined by the nec for purposes of the nec
learn the definitions to understand the book

in the field it is defined by the poco
learn their standards to understand your responsibility

in my area the service point is the crimps the poco puts on their wire to my wire
the wires, weather head, riser, meter base, primary panel or disconnect all belong to me , the meter in my base belongs to poco
very simply you will have to learn where the poco property ends and yours begins according to them
dont bother arguing terms and definitions with anyone in the field .... it is a waste of time
most of those terms and definitions are used much more loosely by people in the field, and they become confusing because of that
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
WTF is your general problem?

Electrical engineering is NOT even Close to being an electrician so give it up already.












FKN DWEEB.
What does this have anything to do with electrical engineering? Also, I'm asking about the exact intent of the NEC by its creator (NFPA) or buildings department, and I thought there would be some people here that are part of those administrative boards. So, that is why I asked. If it is only electricians who are not part of permit-approving boards here, then of course it is pointless to ask here. However, one first needs to try on order to know. That is why I'm posting here to see if I can try to get any insider information from the authors of the NEC and electrical permit issuers.
 

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The NFPA's intent these days is to sell useless AFCIs and anything else that puts money in their pockets.
 

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WTF is your general problem?

Electrical engineering is NOT even Close to being an electrician so give it up already.












FKN DWEEB.
He kind of sounds like a lawyer's assistant doing research for a potential law suit. He should be asking these questions directly to the NFPA or take some courses on electricity. As electricians we cannot make our own rules otherwise we will hold more liability. We follow the book or the electrical engineer.
He does not indicate what trade or where he is located.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
The NFPA's intent these days is to sell useless AFCIs and anything else that puts money in their pockets.
AFCIs are not useless at all. You do not want loose wiring terminals. AFCIs detect them before the arcing comes into contact with, to ignite, say, combustible dust from household, office, or retail settings that has settled (because the box is not dust-tight (dust-tight enclosures need to be perfectly sealed except the HEPA filter itself to let only gas molecules pass through); though very slowly because the air exchange rate is very small) into the electrical boxes over roughly 7 or more years.
 

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AFCIs are not useless at all. You do not want loose wiring terminals. AFCIs detect them before the arcing comes into contact with, to ignite, say, combustible dust from household, office, or retail settings that has settled (because the box is not dust-tight (dust-tight enclosures need to be perfectly sealed except the HEPA filter itself to let only gas molecules pass through); though very slowly because the air exchange rate is very small) into the electrical boxes over roughly 7 or more years.
Many electricians do not like the AFCIs because they have many call back problems that we have to make good on without charging. People buy non-conforming electronic things and the AFCI might see it as an arc. Tell the homeowner his $4,500.00 fancy gas cooktop is causing the tripping and he will throw you out. The new smart meters sometimes cause interference with the AFCI and who is responsible?
 

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AFCIs are not useless at all. You do not want loose wiring terminals. AFCIs detect them before the arcing comes into contact with, to ignite, say, combustible dust from household, office, or retail settings that has settled (because the box is not dust-tight (dust-tight enclosures need to be perfectly sealed except the HEPA filter itself to let only gas molecules pass through); though very slowly because the air exchange rate is very small) into the electrical boxes over roughly 7 or more years.
AFCIs are complete junk. There has never been a test to my knowledge that shows one working without using a specialized machine the multiplies voltage 10x plus above what a standard service supplies to a house. States who have amended AFCIs out of their NEC do NOT have higher house fires rates. Apparently you said you want to become an electrician, so you have no real world experience. I have replaced countless Devices that have burned up on AFCI circuits. The only AFCI circuits that kind of work are ones that are dual function that have GFCI and I believe the GFCI caught the shorting issues and had nothing to do with Arcing. So either learn from people with experience or quit trolling
 

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FKN DWEEB.
If there is a dweeb here it is you. Your are also being needlessly rude and arrogant.
During 45 years of electrical work, of several different kinds, I tried to adhere to the underlying principal that the only stupid question is the one that you do not ask. How are people supposed to learn without asking questions. Since the dominant purpose of these message boards is to ask questions why are you here?

Tom Horne
 

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Are service-entrance conductors (strictly defined term by the electrical industry globally, so no ambiguity here) a subset of service conductors?
In a word No! Service Conductors are regulated under the rules in the National Electrical Safety Code. Service Entry Conductors are regulated under the rules of the National Electrical Code.

The most-common case of older neighborhoods is where the service point is defined as the point where the utility's overhead wiring meets the service-entrance conductors. In this case:
Does this mean that the overhead service conductors do not exist?
I'm going to answer deadpan regardless of what you are actually asking. No service conductors = no service. In some installations there can be several pole spans of "Overhead Service Conductors" prior to the pole from which the "Service Drop" originates. The Service Drop could be connected to Service Entry Conductors which run down a "Yard Pole" to a meter base enclosure or to combination Meter Mains Equipment. By customary usage, and sometimes by Utility Regulatory Body regulation, a yard pole is any pole after the location of the Service Disconnecting Means but it can also be used to name a pole on or at which the utility's meter socket base is mounted. The latter is more common when the utility does not have an easement over the private property beyond that pole to make access to a meter located elsewhere on the premises. In some places a distinction is made between the "Meter Pole" and a "Yard Pole." I hope that I'm conveying the differences which can exist from State to State and even Utility to Utility.

(a) Does this mean that the service drop is always part of the service and never part of the premises wiring?
As long as it is a "Service Drop" and not a building drop from overhead premise wiring on the premise side of the demarcation point then yes that is what it means in the absence of a different definition from your states utility regulating body.

(b) Does this mean that the utility wiring over the front yard is the service drop?
This would depend on whether it is on the premises side or the utility side of the demarcation point. I'm not trying to be frivolous when I say that by definition a "Service Drop" is Service Conductors.

(c) Is the difference between service drop and overhead service conductor distinguished by who owns it?
No. Again the term means what the utility regulatory body of the State says it means. They have no authority over premises wiring systems. Ergo if it is a Service Drop it is service conductors.

(d) why are overhead service conductors and service drops are listed under different definitions?
Service Drops and Service Laterals are 2 different types of Service Conductors. Both are regulated under the rules of the National Electrical Safety Code which is enforced by your State's utility regulating body.

f. Is (a) to (e) the same case with underground utility wiring connecting to the service-entrance conductors in a comparable situation?
In many installations there is no comparable situation because the Service Lateral terminates in the Service Disconnecting Means (SDM). Were the SDM is separate from the meter socket base, located on the premise side of the demarcation point, the Service Entry Conductors are those which are between the Meter Socket Base Enclosure and the Service Disconnecting Means. In all cases "Service Entry Conductors" are located on the premise wiring side of the demarcation point. There is no such thing as Service Entry Conductors in the National Electrical Safety Code which governs the installation of all utility service wiring.

The other exception is were the Meter Socket Base enclosure is on customer owned property, often at the edge of the public easement consisting of a road and or any public footpath, but is not mounted in or on utility owned equipment. 2 similar installations may clarify the distinction. In one the meters are mounted at the utility's transformer located within a utility or public easement. In that case the conductors between the Meter Base Enclosure and the customer's property line, or at the end of the utility easement, are Service Lateral Conductors and the ones between that separate meter enclosure and the Service Disconnecting Means are premise wiring system Service Entry Conductors. If on the other hand the meter Socket Base is mounted in meter mains equipment the conductors between that equipment and the Building Disconnecting Means are Feeder Conductors.

4. Since the service equipment is located downstream of the service point, except for the meter, is it part of the premises wiring or is it part of the service?
All conductors and equipment that are located on the load side of the demarcation point are part of the premises wiring system.

Tom Horne
 

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If there is a dweeb here it is you. Your are also being needlessly rude and arrogant.
During 45 years of electrical work, of several different kinds, I tried to adhere to the underlying principal that the only stupid question is the one that you do not ask. How are people supposed to learn without asking questions. Since the dominant purpose of these message boards is to ask questions why are you here?

Tom Horne
I said that tongue in cheek. AT any rate, I don't see his posts anymore. Problem solved even if the problem was me.
 

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In a word No! Service Conductors are regulated under the rules in the National Electrical Safety Code. Service Entry Conductors are regulated under the rules of the National Electrical Code.



I'm going to answer deadpan regardless of what you are actually asking. No service conductors = no service. In some installations there can be several pole spans of "Overhead Service Conductors" prior to the pole from which the "Service Drop" originates. The Service Drop could be connected to Service Entry Conductors which run down a "Yard Pole" to a meter base enclosure or to combination Meter Mains Equipment. By customary usage, and sometimes by Utility Regulatory Body regulation, a yard pole is any pole after the location of the Service Disconnecting Means but it can also be used to name a pole on or at which the utility's meter socket base is mounted. The latter is more common when the utility does not have an easement over the private property beyond that pole to make access to a meter located elsewhere on the premises. In some places a distinction is made between the "Meter Pole" and a "Yard Pole." I hope that I'm conveying the differences which can exist from State to State and even Utility to Utility.



As long as it is a "Service Drop" and not a building drop from overhead premise wiring on the premise side of the demarcation point then yes that is what it means in the absence of a different definition from your states utility regulating body.



This would depend on whether it is on the premises side or the utility side of the demarcation point. I'm not trying to be frivolous when I say that by definition a "Service Drop" is Service Conductors.



No. Again the term means what the utility regulatory body of the State says it means. They have no authority over premises wiring systems. Ergo if it is a Service Drop it is service conductors.



Service Drops and Service Laterals are 2 different types of Service Conductors. Both are regulated under the rules of the National Electrical Safety Code which is enforced by your State's utility regulating body.



In many installations there is no comparable situation because the Service Lateral terminates in the Service Disconnecting Means (SDM). Were the SDM is separate from the meter socket base, located on the premise side of the demarcation point, the Service Entry Conductors are those which are between the Meter Socket Base Enclosure and the Service Disconnecting Means. In all cases "Service Entry Conductors" are located on the premise wiring side of the demarcation point. There is no such thing as Service Entry Conductors in the National Electrical Safety Code which governs the installation of all utility service wiring.

The other exception is were the Meter Socket Base enclosure is on customer owned property, often at the edge of the public easement consisting of a road and or any public footpath, but is not mounted in or on utility owned equipment. 2 similar installations may clarify the distinction. In one the meters are mounted at the utility's transformer located within a utility or public easement. In that case the conductors between the Meter Base Enclosure and the customer's property line, or at the end of the utility easement, are Service Lateral Conductors and the ones between that separate meter enclosure and the Service Disconnecting Means are premise wiring system Service Entry Conductors. If on the other hand the meter Socket Base is mounted in meter mains equipment the conductors between that equipment and the Building Disconnecting Means are Feeder Conductors.



All conductors and equipment that are located on the load side of the demarcation point are part of the premises wiring system.

Tom Horne
I bet Mike Holt has a neat drawing of these different scenarios where what is called what and whom has jurisdiction over what in these common scenarios.
 
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