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my point being, price means little in resi service, because there typically aren't specs...
I agree.

I would post more but right now I need to go out and try to find some little old ladies that I can charge $400 per hour to.

So far I've havn't had much luck with this.
When I give them a price based on $400 per hour they give me the finger and sick their rottweiler on me.

What happened to all the sweet little old ladies who used to offer me milk and cookies. :001_huh:
 
I agree.

I would post more but right now I need to go out and try to find some little old ladies that I can charge $400 per hour to.

So far I've havn't had much luck with this.
When I give them a price based on $400 per hour they give me the finger and sick their rottweiler on me.

What happened to all the sweet little old ladies who used to offer me milk and cookies. :001_huh:
have you looked in a mirror lately?:laughing:
 
ESI is the "AMWAY" or "rainbow vaccum" of the electric service industry.
Actually, they are like the Starbucks of our industry and small time guys are like the independant coffee shops that stood around saying "starbucks coffee is burned, overpriced, and snotty" all the way to the poor house.

If you surveyed independant coffee shops (if any even exist anymore) most of the owners would be broke and hate starbucks. If you survey independant electrical contractors you will find that most are broke and hate francis electrical companies.

This isn't new though....guys have been gettting rich and going broke doing service work for years. Which are you?
 
Actually, they are like the Starbucks of our industry and small time guys are like the independant coffee shops that stood around saying "starbucks coffee is burned, overpriced, and snotty" all the way to the poor house.

If you surveyed independant coffee shops (if any even exist anymore) most of the owners would be broke and hate starbucks. If you survey independant electrical contractors you will find that most are broke and hate francis electrical companies.

This isn't new though....guys have been gettting rich and going broke doing service work for years. Which are you?
Your analogy isn't applicable. The coffee from the small independants wasn't anywhere near as good as Starbucks - who could charge more because they delivered a better product, in a better setting, and gave customers what they wanted along with free internet access.

Whether a homeowner goes with an ESI or an independant company it's still the same damn Lutron dimmer, the same damn 200a service, she same damn sparky doing the work with the same damn buttcrack exposed on the same damn jobsite.
 
Your analogy isn't applicable. The coffee from the small independants wasn't anywhere near as good as Starbucks - who could charge more because they delivered a better product, in a better setting, and gave customers what they wanted along with free internet access.

Whether a homeowner goes with an ESI or an independant company it's still the same damn Lutron dimmer, the same damn 200a service, she same damn sparky doing the work with the same damn buttcrack exposed on the same damn jobsite.
Not really.
What you are describing is the steak when the SALES are about the sizzle.
You sell the sizzle NOT the steak.

As to the coffee example:
I worked in gourmet food shops as a teen in the mid 70's.
We sold every sort of exotic coffee with special roasting and custom grinding too. Any coffee shop that wanted to sell premium bean could have. No one (well, few) even bothered. Until Starbucks.

Even at the deli counter of where I worked and sold coffee. We went with regular blend stuff. It's wwhat MOST customers wanted until they had been convinced they were missing out by not drinking that over roasted after taste leaving garbage from Seattle.

I still prefer Folgers.
**

As to EC's and planned programmed price book flat rate pricing...
it's about having *a system* to work from. Right, wrong or purple is less important than being consistently applied.

And with KNOWN minimum margins.

Oh yeah babee... can't say enough good about KNOWN margins.
 
I had some coffee a friend brought back from Costa Rica this morning, and while I absolutely see your point and agree with you about the fancy shmancy gotta pay $5 for a sh*tty cup of coffee trend I must admit the Costa Rican Coffee was excellent.
 
Oh yeah, i love a good coffee too.
But I appreciate them more when I have them less often; as a treat.

But I also drink about 40oz's of no cream/no sugar Black every day...

Anyway, the deal with exotic coffee starts with a fresh bean of course but roasting style and handling after roasting are at LEAST 3/4 of the final experience. And roasting doesn't have to be as lets say thorough as how SB's does it.

Then you get ito the who vente grande absurdity.
You know "Foamy"? The cartoon squirrel and his goth girlfriend germaine?

 
Not really.
What you are describing is the steak when the SALES are about the sizzle.
You sell the sizzle NOT the steak.
Exactly what I'm talking about - ESI is about selling, not electrical work. It's false, it's about getting money for nothing. It's part of the same BS processes that destroy this nation.

And peole think unions are bad...

As to the coffee example:
I worked in gourmet food shops as a teen in the mid 70's.
We sold every sort of exotic coffee with special roasting and custom grinding too. Any coffee shop that wanted to sell premium bean could have. No one (well, few) even bothered. Until Starbucks.

Even at the deli counter of where I worked and sold coffee. We went with regular blend stuff. It's wwhat MOST customers wanted until they had been convinced they were missing out by not drinking that over roasted after taste leaving garbage from Seattle.

I still prefer Folgers.
**
I have been lured into starbucks for my coffee fix, it's good... delicious in fact but... afterwards still wanted "real" coffee and went to Dunkin Donuts...

As to EC's and planned programmed price book flat rate pricing...
it's about having *a system* to work from. Right, wrong or purple is less important than being consistently applied.

And with KNOWN minimum margins.

Oh yeah babee... can't say enough good about KNOWN margins.
I find it curious....

Right wrong or purple, X job is worth X dollars... across the board.

SO many EC's willing to agree with this concept and even some willing to not only embrace it, but put their money where their mouth is... and adopt it and pay for it.

But...

Those very same EC's totally UNWILLING to agree EVERY JW is worth at least X $$$.

So, forgive my BS detector's alarms but this is about money, not solid concepts or right or wrong or fair or unfair...
 
Exactly what I'm talking about - ESI is about selling, not electrical work. It's false, it's about getting money for nothing. It's part of the same BS processes that destroy this nation.
You're right that the electrical work itself is almost incidental.
That's because the PRIMARY product is assurance; not the wire and devices.

Assurance on price and terms and time frame to complete and warranty easy transaction logistics and little booties on the "technicians" feet.

People value that assurance and are happy to pay for it.
Through the nose in many cases but that sort of abuse is really not very smart business.

If your daughter was 1000 miles from home on a roadtrip and had a mechanical problem... where would you tell her to take the car?

A well known or even nationally recognized name service shop knowing it will probably cost more than your guy at home charges or do you tell her to poke around for another little guy with two lifts who really does know his stuff like you use at home?

Thats it in a nutshell. The price is secondary to the assurance.
Up to a point.

I have been lured into starbucks for my coffee fix, it's good... delicious in fact but... afterwards still wanted "real" coffee and went to Dunkin Donuts...
zackly.

I find it curious....
Right wrong or purple, X job is worth X dollars... across the board.
That right, wrong or purple thing is just an expression I got somewhere.

But as to the "across the board":
On average. Based on your OWN experience doing X you determine your T&M costs then add in everything and the kitchen sink.

Some of these deals are buying someone elses experience too.
Thats a different concept than having a book and a "system" to use it.

Like putting together assemblies. It works out to what it works out to.

SO many EC's willing to agree with this concept and even some willing to not only embrace it, but put their money where their mouth is... and adopt it and pay for it.
It works.
There are real limits on how it can work though.
Principally the number of guys competing for the cream of a market.

But...
Those very same EC's totally UNWILLING to agree EVERY JW is worth at least X $$$.
But every JW *isn't* worth at least X $$$. Are they?
I have my good traits but I have no delusions that so and so can't leave me and my skills in the dust.

So the value of labor too also all goes back to "on average".

Based on your OWN experience doing X you determine your crews time needed to do a given job.

How long can you go screw around with the roach coach chick before all 87 of those lay-ins are set and wired and you have to come back upstairs?

The crew average becomes X.
The training to make up that difference is a part of the "system" too btw.

So, forgive my BS detector's alarms but this is about money, not solid concepts or right or wrong or fair or unfair...
Did someone ever say it was otherwise?
 
You're right that the electrical work itself is almost incidental.
That's because the PRIMARY product is assurance; not the wire and devices.

Assurance on price and terms and time frame to complete and warranty easy transaction logistics and little booties on the "technicians" feet.

People value that assurance and are happy to pay for it.
NO!!!

People are talked into and convinced it HAS value. Boondoggled... misled...

Through the nose in many cases but that sort of abuse is really not very smart business.

If your daughter was 1000 miles from home on a roadtrip and had a mechanical problem... where would you tell her to take the car?

A well known or even nationally recognized name service shop knowing it will probably cost more than your guy at home charges or do you tell her to poke around for another little guy with two lifts who really does know his stuff like you use at home?

Thats it in a nutshell. The price is secondary to the assurance.
Up to a point.
ASSURANCE is the name of the huckster's sales game... like I siad - AMWAY... My clothes are just as claen using TIDE.[/quote]


zackly.



That right, wrong or purple thing is just an expression I got somewhere.

But as to the "across the board":
On average. Based on your OWN experience doing X you determine your T&M costs then add in everything and the kitchen sink.

Some of these deals are buying someone elses experience too.
Thats a different concept than having a book and a "system" to use it.

Like putting together assemblies. It works out to what it works out to.



It works.
There are real limits on how it can work though.
Principally the number of guys competing for the cream of a market.
[/quote]

Of course it works - there ARE idiots who buy into it and who think others will too. There's a fool born every minute.


But every JW *isn't* worth at least X $$$. Are they?
I have my good traits but I have no delusions that so and so can't leave me and my skills in the dust.

So the value of labor too also all goes back to "on average".

Based on your OWN experience doing X you determine your crews time needed to do a given job.

How long can you go screw around with the roach coach chick before all 87 of those lay-ins are set and wired and you have to come back upstairs?

The crew average becomes X.
The training to make up that difference is a part of the "system" too btw.



Did someone ever say it was otherwise?
 
Exactly what I'm talking about - ESI is about selling, not electrical work.
Without selling you won't have any electrical work to do.

Being in business is about making money not about electrical work.

There's alot of people that can do electrical work.

There's not nearly as many that can sell electrical work and operate a profitable business.

So yes it is all about selling.

Nothing happens until you make the sale.
 
Your analogy isn't applicable. The coffee from the small independants wasn't anywhere near as good as Starbucks - who could charge more because they delivered a better product, in a better setting, and gave customers what they wanted along with free internet access.

Whether a homeowner goes with an ESI or an independant company it's still the same damn Lutron dimmer, the same damn 200a service, she same damn sparky doing the work with the same damn buttcrack exposed on the same damn jobsite.
That's my point. Small time guys think they offer better service than large companies but they don't. They are just cheaper.

Price does not equal service. Yet ask any small contractor why he is better than the big company and he will say price.

You think small time guys are giving the same service and I am here to tell you its not even close.
 
Without selling you won't have any electrical work to do.

Being in business is about making money not about electrical work.

There's alot of people that can do electrical work.

There's not nearly as many that can sell electrical work and operate a profitable business.

So yes it is all about selling.

Nothing happens until you make the sale.
LGLS believes that all the work will get done regardless...so lower prices to the customer and raise the rates to the worker...
 
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