[Awg-Dawg]

It's the same both ways.

Test that receptacle to ground and you will get less than 150v. The nominal voltage will also be less than 150V.

A 480v ungrounded system might show less than 150v to ground.

 

[HackWork]

A 480v ungrounded system might show less than 150v to ground.

Then you wouldn't need GFCI protection.

You know the meaning, there is no question. I think this is silly.

If you want to pick something apart for the sake of picking something apart, there is far better code articles to do it with.

 

[Awg-Dawg]

Then you wouldn't need GFCI protection.

You know the meaning, there is no question. I think this is silly.

If you want to pick something apart for the sake of picking something apart, there is far better code articles to do it with.

I’m not picking anything apart, I’m only commenting on what it says.

Using your logic , you’re could spend thousands of dollars on gfcis in a Restaurant, I’m only saying that the wording says it’s not provided.

 

[HackWork]

I’m not picking anything apart, I’m only commenting on what it says.

You are most certainly picking it apart. It's very clear, there is no question.

Using your logic , you’re could spend thousands of dollars on gfcis in a Restaurant

I don't know what that means.

I’m only saying that the wording says it’s not provided.

I don't know what this means either.

 

[Awg-Dawg]

You are most certainly picking it apart. It's very clear, there is no question.

I don't know what that means.



I don't know what this means either.

It’s very clear, i read it like it says.

You read it by adding circuit to the wording, which it doesn’t, that clearly changes the requirement.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

The problem is that every brand of EV charger (EVSE) that I install, both hard-wired and plug-in models, has GFCI built in. Over a number of experiments so far, when plugged into a circuit protected by a (pricey) GFCI breaker, they do not function. They REQUIRE NO GFCI.

So now what???

View attachment 138400

Mike are you sure it has gfci and not gfp built in. If they are both GFCI then there should be no reason for trouble however if there is gfp in the unit and then you install a gfci then I can see a possibility of an issue since they trip at different limits

 

[HackWork]

It’s very clear, i read it like it says.

You read it by adding circuit to the wording, which it doesn’t, that clearly changes the requirement.

I didn't add anything to it.

You can pick apart at least a third of the code to find little, tiny, minuscule ways to say how it's not exact int he same way as you are doing here, but we all know exactly what it means, like we do here.

 

[Awg-Dawg]

I didn't add anything to it.

You can pick apart at least a third of the code to find little, tiny, minuscule ways to say how it's not exact int he same way as you are doing here, but we all know exactly what it means, like we do here.

I agree that we all know what the intent is.


The CMP does as well and have changed it to read that.


Again, I’m not picking anything apart, I’m only commenting on what it says.

 

[HackWork]

The CMP does as well and have changed it to read that.

The CMP has HUNDREDS of other code articles that needs to be addressed first. Code that actually makes us do different installations in different municipalities because the AHJ's see the code completely differently than each other.

This is not one of those instances, everyone know exactly what it means.

 

[Awg-Dawg]

everyone know exactly what it means.

Apparently not,lol.

 

[HackWork]

Apparently not,lol.

The only person who doesn't know what it means is someone who is picking it apart.

How about getting back to the topic of the thread?

Will a ground fault protected vehicle charger trip a ground fault protected outlet? And how does one differentiate between a receptacle for vehicle charging and one for any of the many other purposes that people use 50A receptacles for?

 

[JoeSparky]

Looks like we are all installing nema 14-50 RV outlets now. More importantly, when was the last time any of us have pulled a permit :no: to install an EV outlet? How soon before they eliminate the neutral bus terminals in Resi loadcenters?

 

[micromind]

As a receptacle rated 250V single phase, that means that it is rated under 150V to ground.

Slightly out of context here but if the recept. was fed by the high leg of a 120/240 3Ø 4 wire ∆ system and one of the other phases, it'd be more than 150 volts to ground.

 

[HackWork]

Slightly out of context here but if the recept. was fed by the high leg of a 120/240 3Ø 4 wire ∆ system and one of the other phases, it'd be more than 150 volts to ground.

And then you wouldn't have to GFCI protect it. You also wouldn't have to GFCI protect it if the customer says they are going to plug their RV into it.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

And then you wouldn't have to GFCI protect it. You also wouldn't have to GFCI protect it if the customer says they are going to plug their RV into it.

Well you would have to gfci protect it in 2020 which is what the op was talking about.

210.8(A) Dwelling Units.
All 125-volt through 250-volt receptacles installed in the locations specified in 210.8(A)(1) through (A)⁠(11) and supplied by single-phase branch circuits rated 150 volts or less to ground shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.

210.8(B) Other Than Dwelling Units.
All 125-volt through 250-volt receptacles supplied by single-phase branch circuits rated 150 volts or less to ground, 50 amperes or less, and all receptacles supplied by three-phase branch circuits rated 150 volts or less to ground, 100 amperes or less, installed in the locations specified in 210.8(B)(1) through (B)(12) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.

 

[mikewillnot]

Mike are you sure it has gfci and not gfp built in. If they are both GFCI then there should be no reason for trouble however if there is gfp in the unit and then you install a gfci then I can see a possibility of an issue since they trip at different limits

[OP] Thanks for the on-topic reply, Dennis.

The answer is, I don't know exactly what's built into the chargers. Details are not in the specs that I have access to, unless I missed something several times. The problem occurs with every brand of EVSE I've tried (about 5), several of which claim somewhere in their lit or in their support emails to have GFCI built in. If it's GFPE, that's worth knowing, I suppose, although I don't know enough about the technology itself to understand why if both are GFCI, they should work in series. I'll do some more research.

What I DO know is that with a number of different brands now, plugging their unit into a GFCI-protected outlet (various brands of breaker) causes instant trip. Going back to a normal breaker -- no problem.


One manufacturer actually specifies that the outlet must not be GFCI protected.


Whatever's in there, its function poses an obvious compliance problem.

 

[mikewillnot]

Looks like we are all installing nema 14-50 RV outlets now. More importantly, when was the last time any of us have pulled a permit :no: to install an EV outlet? How soon before they eliminate the neutral bus terminals in Resi loadcenters?

[OP] Off topic, but:
We're NOT all installing 14-50. A number of the EVSE models/brands I install come, or CAN come with, 6-50 plugs. For this application, the 14-50 is overkill and a waste of wire anyway, as none of the "level 2" chargers actually require or use a neutral. AFAIK, the only (resi) customers I interact with who can ever expect to NEED a neutral are those who might someday want to plug in an RV.


From what history I know, the origins of the EVSE industry's "standardization" on the 14-50 can be found in the early days of the Tesla Roadster, when the company determined that the best odds for finding a 240-volt outlet "in the wild" was in RV parks.


No matter, probably. I understand that technologically, Beta was actually superior to VHS.

 

[mikewillnot]

You also wouldn't have to GFCI protect it if the customer says they are going to plug their RV into it.

I can't legally do this, as EVSE is almost all we do, and I often include the hardware with the sale, and usually/always hang it on the wall, plug it in, activate it, etc. I also specify in our agreements that our work is code compliant. What the customer :wink: "says" won't fly.

 

[HackWork]

I can't legally do this, as EVSE is almost all we do, and I often include the hardware with the sale, and usually/always hang it on the wall, plug it in, activate it, etc. I also specify in our agreements that our work is code compliant. What the customer :wink: "says" won't fly.

If you are providing the charger, why are you using the plug-in models? The only time I install those is when the customer already bought it that way. Most customers buy the hardwired model and when they ask me beforehand that is what I recommend as well.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Some of those units come with a cord so short that they cannot plug into a receptacle with an in-use cover. We have been disconnecting the cord and doing a direct wire. Not sure if that is allowed but that is what we are doing.

It is literally impossible to use the 6" of cord and plug that they supply unless it is indoor.