Four conductors, two neutrals.

36700 Views 38 Replies 19 Participants Last post by Greg Sparkovich, Jul 9, 2011

okeefe

Discussion Starter · Feb 23, 2008

Anybody using 4 conductor w/ground romex,(bk, rd, wh, wh/rd stripe, and grd) instead of pulling two home runs in residential work? I was just curious if this cable is cost effective. I will get a price quote on Monday but it seems like a cool idea, you use less staples, cut home run labor in half, less cables going into the panels etc.

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1 - 20 of 39 Posts

JohnJ0906

· #2 · Feb 23, 2008

Yes, ever since the AFCI requirements started. Definite labor saver.

I don't purchase, so I can't speak to price, but I suspect it is cost-effective, or my boss wouldn't keep using it.

Watch your box fill - need 22 cu. in. for #14 [ (1) 14-2-2, (2) 14-2] We usually use 20 cube boxes, so we have to use an oversize where the homeruns are.

a-bulb

· #3 · Feb 23, 2008

yeah I use it on all my roughs. It's called 14/2/2. It is expensive but saves alot of time. I also use it for running my lighting homeruns when wiring a lighting control system like litetouch or lutron homeworks. cuts down on your time cutting in your panels also.

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jason007

· #4 · Feb 23, 2008

weve used the 14/2/2 in houses for lighting circuits time savor indeed

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corkers

· #5 · Feb 28, 2008

JohnJ0906 said:
Yes, ever since the AFCI requirements started. Definite labor saver.

AFCI ???? sorry guys whats this

Speedy Petey

· #6 · Feb 28, 2008 (Edited)

corkers said:
AFCI ???? sorry guys whats this

No, really. Are you serious? This is a real question. It's just they've been around since the 1999 NEC.

OK, sorry corkers, I see now. You are from Australia. I hadn't seen your post in "Introductions" yet.

They are Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter breakers.

swedex

· #7 · Mar 4, 2008

I love the Romex 12/2/2

Its perfect for the kithcen's 2 required GFCI protected small appliance circuits. Since people plugs in motor loads such as blenders and such, you can not use a 12/3 multiwire circuit with only one neutral since the GFCI's would nuisance trip over fluctuations on the neutral vs the 2 phases. 12/2/2 let you use only one romex cable to solve for these 2 circuits without any problems at all. since each phase got its own separate neutral conductor, therefore the return in the neutral is equal to the output of the phase conductor and no tripping of the GFCI. It saves you time and $$$
And it is cheaper than running 2 x 12/2 to solve for the same situation.

LGLS

· #8 · Mar 4, 2008

There is no problem with tripping GFCI receptacles when running a 12/3 the the 1st device (A GFCI for ckt1) and then splitting into 2 12/2 circuits. (Ckt 1 load & Ckt 2)

a-bulb

· #9 · Mar 5, 2008

swedex are you using Gfci breakers for sm appliance cir?

gilbequick

· #10 · Mar 5, 2008

If you used 12/2/2 for a small appliance circuit, you'd need at least a 24ci box. That's a pretty big single gang box. The fiber arlingtons I use only have 20.5ci.

french connection!!

· #11 · Mar 5, 2008

here in bay area California , I can't get 14/4 or 12/4 from my supplies anymore and they even told manufacture were not making then either .I liked to use those romex , perfect for afci , lighting 3way , 4way , kitchen , etc ...

swedex

· #12 · Mar 5, 2008

a-bulb said:
swedex are you using Gfci breakers for sm appliance cir?

Actually no...I was using GFCI receptacles at the 2 required small appliance branch-circuits in the kitchen. Each one got its on dedicated 20A breaker as required and the first receptacle9GFCI) on each circuit has the incoming hot connected to the line side and all downstream regular receptacles(every 4 ft) are also protected connected on the load side. One branch circuit on each side of the sink. But since they would share the neutral and the neutral is onlu carrying the balance current between the 2 circuits, any uneven load...and it will trip the GFCI. thats why I love the 12/2/2 with that one...cost efficient and time efficient and less bulk with less romex to pull.

swedex

· #13 · Mar 5, 2008

gilbequick said:
If you used 12/2/2 for a small appliance circuit, you'd need at least a 24ci box. That's a pretty big single gang box. The fiber arlingtons I use only have 20.5ci.

Actually...I can use extra deep carlon old work box or a 2 gang box.

swedex

· #14 · Mar 5, 2008

french connection!! said:
here in bay area California , I can't get 14/4 or 12/4 from my supplies anymore and they even told manufacture were not making then either .I liked to use those romex , perfect for afci , lighting 3way , 4way , kitchen , etc ...

Home depot in Torrance, CA still got 12/2/2 romex simpull

swedex

· #15 · Mar 5, 2008

LawnGuyLandSparky said:
There is no problem with tripping GFCI receptacles when running a 12/3 the the 1st device (A GFCI for ckt1) and then splitting into 2 12/2 circuits. (Ckt 1 load & Ckt 2)

Actually...by NEC Article 250.52(B)1.2.3 You need a minimum of 2 separate branch circuits to serve as the 2 small appliance circuits = 2 separate breakers in your panel. And if you are using a 12/3...You will have to place each breaker on side by side in your panel not on the same phase or you could fry the neutral rather than just have the neutral carry only the unbalanced difference between L1 and L2 = phase one and phase 2 very important. But this unbalance when plugging in an appliance with a motor load easily trips the GFCI's.

LGLS

· #16 · Mar 5, 2008

swedex said:
Actually...by NEC Article 250.52(B)1.2.3 You need a minimum of 2 separate branch circuits to serve as the 2 small appliance circuits = 2 separate breakers in your panel. And if you are using a 12/3...You will have to place each breaker on side by side in your panel not on the same phase or you could fry the neutral rather than just have the neutral carry only the unbalanced difference between L1 and L2 = phase one and phase 2 very important. But this unbalance when plugging in an appliance with a motor load easily trips the GFCI's.

Actually, you're wrong. The imbalance in the HR neutral is irrelevant. A 12/3 HR is not GFCI protected, just as using 12-2-2 in your example is not GFCI protected either.

12/3 from the panel (2 20a breakers on opposite legs) to the 1st device (A GFCI receptacle) splits into 2 12/2 circuits. The neutrals are no longer common from that point on.

GFCIs measure imbalance on the neutral only through and beyond the actual device, not prior to it.

You're confusing the ability to share a common neutral BEFORE the GFCI protection, with the inability to share a common neutral AFTER the GFCI protection.

swedex

· #17 · Mar 5, 2008

LawnGuyLandSparky said:
Actually, you're wrong. The imbalance in the HR neutral is irrelevant. A 12/3 HR is not GFCI protected, just as using 12-2-2 in your example is not GFCI protected either.

12/3 from the panel (2 20a breakers on opposite legs) to the 1st device (A GFCI receptacle) splits into 2 12/2 circuits. The neutrals are no longer common from that point on.

GFCIs measure imbalance on the neutral only through and beyond the actual device, not prior to it.

You're confusing the ability to share a common neutral BEFORE the GFCI protection, with the inability to share a common neutral AFTER the GFCI protection.

AGAIN...by code you can NOT make your 2 required small appliance circuit's out of one branch circuit. Which means...you can't split one of them to make 2 circuits out of one. That does not fulfill the requirement of the code. I see what you mean about the splitting an all that. So if you got one branch circuit coming from a 20 A breaker in your panel. And it enters your first device-box and enters the line-side on your GFCI, thats fine. But from there on you can always add down-stream receptacles from the load side of this first GFCI. This is also fine. But you cant split them at this point thinking that one of the splits is good as the second small appliance circuit. You still need a second branch circuit from a second 20A breaker on the other phase in your panel to qualify as the second branch circuit. And yes the GFCI senses the differential internally in the device itself. But since you are using a 12/3 with now is providing a common neutral in the same cable,carrying only the unbalanced load between the 2 phases. Any motor load on one of these phases and for some reason this is enough to trip the GFCI's. I know this for a fact. I tried it and learned the hard way. I had to rewire the incoming hot from the panel to the first devices on each circuit for it to work properly. Separate neutrals...no problemo! I even called my old friend BOB wich holds A master electrician licence and had General journeyman licenses in 11 state and have more than 40 years in the trade. And he readily agreed with me.

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gilbequick

· #18 · Mar 5, 2008

How does a 12/3 not constitute 2 circuits? There are 2 different wires on 2 different (separate) breakers. Just because the breakers are required on '08 code to have a handle tie on them doesn't mean that it's only one circuit, it's still 2 circuits. Bob is also not right on this one.

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swedex

· #19 · Mar 5, 2008

gilbequick said:
How does a 12/3 not constitute 2 circuits? There are 2 different wires on 2 different (separate) breakers. Just because the breakers are required on '08 code to have a handle tie on them doesn't mean that it's only one circuit, it's still 2 circuits. Bob is also not right on this one.

I never said that a 12/3 doesn't constitute 2 circuits...I said that in order to use it as the 2 small appliance circuits. It is not a good idea with only one neutral. And how do you legally split a branch circuit from one GFCI into 2 separate circuits? And call them 2 separate small appliance circuits? Read the definition of a branch circuit and the definition of a multiwire branch circuit. And I was not talking about the handle tie's wich is required on MULTIWIRE BRANCH CIRCUITS.

LGLS

· #20 · Mar 6, 2008

swedex said:
I never said that a 12/3 doesn't constitute 2 circuits...I said that in order to use it as the 2 small appliance circuits. It is not a good idea with only one neutral.

Why isn't it a good idea? It's 2 circuits. It's no different from any other multi wire circuit. Don't you ever run a 14/3 homerun to feed 2 separate 15a circuits?

And how do you legally split a branch circuit from one GFCI into 2 separate circuits? And call them 2 separate small appliance circuits? Read the definition of a branch circuit and the definition of a multiwire branch circuit. And I was not talking about the handle tie's wich is required on MULTIWIRE BRANCH CIRCUITS.

12/3 homerun from the panel to the 1st device box in the kitchen is TWO 20a SABC's. Prior to the actual GFCI, one of the circuits (red & neutral) peel off and splice onto a 12/2 and run off to the second GFCI device, the 2nd circuit.
Back at the 1st device, the black & neutral feed the 1st circuit GFCI. It's load is where you connect the second 12-2 to feed downstream receptacles for circuit 1.

Nowhere post-gfci is the neutral shared.

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