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It is my understanding that PLA's are not required on federal jobs anymore, just advised to be mandated on projects over 25 million if it helps meet deadline and efficiency goals. With that being known it sounds to me that we are just a good political swing away from losing a major amount of the unions work.

What is the future of the IBEW without PLA's? How much of your locals work is under them?
 

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It is my understanding that PLA's are not required on federal jobs anymore, just advised to be mandated on projects over 25 million if it helps meet deadline and efficiency goals. With that being known it sounds to me that we are just a good political swing away from losing a major amount of the unions work.

What is the future of the IBEW without PLA's? How much of your locals work is under them?

Who changed the law?
 

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If the unions can't survive without PLA's, then they deserve to die.

PLA's are nothing more than legal extortion. Here, sign this agreement to use only union labor and we won't make any trouble for you. Refuse to sign an agreement? You'll be sorry. PLA's and card check are two of the most disgusting and egregious policies that the union endorses. Any one who defends those policies shouldn't be surprised that the majority of Americans no longer support the unions.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
If the unions can't survive without PLA's, then they deserve to die.

PLA's are nothing more than legal extortion. Here, sign this agreement to use only union labor and we won't make any trouble for you. Refuse to sign an agreement? You'll be sorry. PLA's and card check are two of the most disgusting and egregious policies that the union endorses. Any one who defends those policies shouldn't be surprised that the majority of Americans no longer support the unions.
Just opened my fortune cookie about ten minutes after reading your post. I think its for you.
 

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Any one who defends those policies shouldn't be surprised that the majority of Americans no longer support the unions.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/149279/approval-labor-unions-holds-near-low.aspx

All time low of 52% is still a majority of Americans supporting unions.

Now, I will admit, amongst the 25% of Americans who are stupid enough to believe the president was not born in this country ( 85% of which are teabaggers ) the percentage supporting unions is much lower - but these are the same people who consistently are opposed to any worker rights whatsoever.
 

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http://www.gallup.com/poll/149279/approval-labor-unions-holds-near-low.aspx

All time low of 52% is still a majority of Americans supporting unions.

Now, I will admit, amongst the 25% of Americans who are stupid enough to believe the president was not born in this country ( 85% of which are teabaggers ) the percentage supporting unions is much lower - but these are the same people who consistently are opposed to any worker rights whatsoever.
Yup there you go insulting people instead of presenting a strong argument to why your side is better,,,,:rolleyes:

 

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Yup there you go insulting people instead of presenting a strong argument to why your side is better,,,,:rolleyes:
No point in presenting any argument. You don't care about little things like the truth or facts or reason. You ignored the gallup poll because it disagreed with your preconceived idea of the world and reacted to teabagger, kind of proving my point.
 

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PLAs help, but unions are doomed until they can all be united again. How many teachers, police, firefighters use non union electrical contractors to do their home remodel? But want ibews support when there is a pay cut...

I also believe the lack of education is killing the unions especially the IBEW. We already see it with the CE/CW program. How many JIW do you know that never take upgrade training classes, or sit through Apprtc class on AC theory? If required to take a class by the state they take the easiest class they can that has little to over the EC. A COMET class does not help an EC make money on the job, and OSHA is good, but not if it's the only class you take. Or thing the EC should pay to train them.
NECA and union EC are to blame too, with not going after work...
 

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The things killing unions are poor training. And not honoring each other's lines.

I watched the culinary and housekeeping unions in Las Vegas kill off several unions by never honoring any picket lines. In over twenty five years they never voted to honor anyone else's lines. When they went on strike I made a point of crossing theirs. A Scab club is not a union.
 

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If the unions can't survive without PLA's, then they deserve to die.

PLA's are nothing more than legal extortion. Here, sign this agreement to use only union labor and we won't make any trouble for you. Refuse to sign an agreement? You'll be sorry. PLA's and card check are two of the most disgusting and egregious policies that the union endorses. Any one who defends those policies shouldn't be surprised that the majority of Americans no longer support the unions.


Who ever said that Americans are intelligent ?

Prevailing wage laws were passed to protect the people . There was a war over the treatment of labor . The good old days , Right ?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playboy_Enterprises

Well it goes by PLA , right .



Pete
 

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Who ever said that Americans are intelligent ?

Prevailing wage laws were passed to protect the people . There was a war over the treatment of labor . The good old days , Right ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playboy_Enterprises

Pete
Who said anything about prevailing wage?

This thread is about PLA's.

Fwiw, I disagree with prevailing wage also. All it does is help the union compete by inflating wages. I work for a non-union contractor. I've negotiated a wage with my employer that we are both comfortable with. Why should they have to pay me prevailing wage on certain projects just to make things fair for the union? Screw the union! If they can't compete that's there problem.

Sure, I like making some extra money while working pw, but let's not forget where that money comes from. Pw is used on publicly funded projects (ie., my tax dollars). Why should the public (me and you) have to pay more for the project to even the playing field for the unions?
 

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Who said anything about prevailing wage?

This thread is about PLA's.

Fwiw, I disagree with prevailing wage also. All it does is help the union compete by inflating wages. I work for a non-union contractor. I've negotiated a wage with my employer that we are both comfortable with. Why should they have to pay me prevailing wage on certain projects just to make things fair for the union? Screw the union! If they can't compete that's there problem.

Sure, I like making some extra money while working pw, but let's not forget where that money comes from. Pw is used on publicly funded projects (ie., my tax dollars). Why should the public (me and you) have to pay more for the project to even the playing field for the unions?
Why should I make less money because you are willing to work for dirt wages?

Basically - that is what you just said. You will work for squat, and are proud to work for squat and everyone else should work for the same squat you want to work for, and you would be willing to work for even less because don't value your time, training or abilities.

Stop dragging the rest of us down with you.
 

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Who said anything about prevailing wage?

This thread is about PLA's.

Fwiw, I disagree with prevailing wage also. All it does is help the union compete by inflating wages. I work for a non-union contractor. I've negotiated a wage with my employer that we are both comfortable with. Why should they have to pay me prevailing wage on certain projects just to make things fair for the union? Screw the union! If they can't compete that's there problem.

Sure, I like making some extra money while working pw, but let's not forget where that money comes from. Pw is used on publicly funded projects (ie., my tax dollars). Why should the public (me and you) have to pay more for the project to even the playing field for the unions?


You made my point .

Prevailing Wage is always lower than the going rate for a good "J" man .
The reason the government passed such laws was to protect the people
from Low Wages , and to keep a pool of Qualified workers . The contractors keep the major difference when Electrical .

I've swam in both oceans . I wonder what a Good Wage / Shop is to you ?

As being the " Public " ... I do like seeing Tax Dollars going where it should .

PLA also is a call sign for Playboy . I like that better .



Pete
 

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Who said anything about prevailing wage?

This thread is about PLA's.

Fwiw, I disagree with prevailing wage also.
All it does is help the union compete by inflating wages.
How does inflating wages help the union compete?

I work for a non-union contractor. I've negotiated a wage with my employer that we are both comfortable with.
I work for a union contractor, along with about 12,000 others. We've found that one-on-one wage negotiations always result in the employee getting a "take it or leave it" offer and that it's far better for us, financially, to have professionals and lawyers do the negotiating for us. Just like movie stars and professional sports stars. What's great about this method is that if an employer claims they can't afford our demands, they have to prove it. For some reason they never do. I wonder why that is?

Why should they have to pay me prevailing wage on certain projects just to make things fair for the union?
Because it is recognized from a legal standpoint and from a practical standpoint when it comes to spending taxpayer dollars on public works projects that competitive bidding isn't a perfect system when the contractors with the lowest paid personnel get the jobs. Typically, all contractors have to pay the same for materials which are typically specified right down to the manufacturer and model # to the methodology of installation. If wages and employee qualifications weren't also specified every job would be competing on who has the lowest payroll instead of who has the best and most well managed company.

Screw the union! If they can't compete that's there problem.
Competition isn't really the big issue here, since nonunion shops bid on and win PW jobs all the time.

Sure, I like making some extra money while working pw, but let's not forget where that money comes from.
So do I. In fact, I make at least that wage whether it's publically funded or not. It's the prevailing wage. Why would you call yourself an electrician and work for any less?

Pw is used on publicly funded projects (ie., my tax dollars). Why should the public (me and you) have to pay more for the project to even the playing field for the unions?
It evens the playing field for everybody. Not just unions. And they're my tax dollars too. And the last thing I want to see happen when a public school or a bridge or a tunnel or a runway goes in with MY tax dollars is some hillbilly contractor from Alabama importing a 100 jacklegs to live in a temporary tent city move into MY town for the duration of the project and mail their paychecks home. This is how PW became a law in NY when that exact senario happened during a construction project at the VA hospital in Northport Long Island.

Now, you would think that a nonunion electrician would have nothing but high praise for PW laws because they almost always invariably earn more money per hour as well as the fringe benefits they're not used to getting while working on a PW project. (Despite the constant claims from so many that they make more than a union electrician per hour, which is utter BS)

But the truth- the part they leave out- is the FACT that nonunion electricians cannot work on the project using their typical industry-killing modis-operendi: load a project up with tons of non educated non skilled "helpers" and only one or two competent electricians who invariably become "foreman" but are typically overwhelmed and constantly make mistakes and screw up requiring even MORE unskilled labor to correct. Because on a PW project EVERYONE must be paid PW unless they're enrolled in an approved apprenticeship program. And they don't swing that way. Nonunion contractors work helpers for years without ever recognizing any official "journeymanship." They'll hire anyone off the street depending on their present need and the availability or lack of skilled labor. And their "helper" to "mechanic" ratio is off the charts with the former number being as many as they can possibly have on the payroll without having to hire another higher paid quasi-layout, quasi-foreman, quasi-sub-foreman, quasi-mechanic type.

The requirement that nonunion contractors have to actually man an electrical project with actual electricians is where they fail. Hence, EBFD6's outrage.
 

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Island Guy


Well said on so many Levels .


"The requirement that nonunion contractors have to actually man an electrical project with actual electricians is where they fail. Hence, EBFD6's outrage."




EBFD6's may well be a "J" man you would like / need on a job .




Pete
 

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If the unions can't survive without PLA's, then they deserve to die.

PLA's are nothing more than legal extortion. Here, sign this agreement to use only union labor and we won't make any trouble for you. Refuse to sign an agreement? You'll be sorry. PLA's and card check are two of the most disgusting and egregious policies that the union endorses. Any one who defends those policies shouldn't be surprised that the majority of Americans no longer support the unions.
yeah because on the other hand we should let the owners dictate pay and screw over workers.
 

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But the truth- the part they leave out- is the FACT that nonunion electricians cannot work on the project using their typical industry-killing modis-operendi: load a project up with tons of non educated non skilled "helpers" and only one or two competent electricians who invariably become "foreman" but are typically overwhelmed and constantly make mistakes and screw up requiring even MORE unskilled labor to correct. Because on a PW project EVERYONE must be paid PW unless they're enrolled in an approved apprenticeship program. And they don't swing that way. Nonunion contractors work helpers for years without ever recognizing any official "journeymanship." They'll hire anyone off the street depending on their present need and the availability or lack of skilled labor. And their "helper" to "mechanic" ratio is off the charts with the former number being as many as they can possibly have on the payroll without having to hire another higher paid quasi-layout, quasi-foreman, quasi-sub-foreman, quasi-mechanic type.

The requirement that nonunion contractors have to actually man an electrical project with actual electricians is where they fail. Hence, EBFD6's outrage.
This might be the way things are done in your area, and I agree that sucks and isn't right.

In Massachusetts we have state wide licensing. We also require 1:1 journeyman to apprentice ratios on jobs. This is strictly enforced. I'm not saying there aren't contractors out there that get away with shady stuff, but on big jobs ratios are checked and enforced. I have personally been on jobs where the inspector showed up randomly to check licenses and ratios. The company I work for now actually doesn't typically have that many apprentices. We have approx. 70 guys on the field and only about 15 or so are apprentices.
 
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