[99cents]

Inspector wants the gas line in a commercial kitchen bonded. There’s an EMT run next to the gas line but he won’t let me bond to that, he says it needs to go to the panel. I’m not going to fight him on it, I’m just wondering why. I’m in a new town and I don’t want to get on the wrong side of an inspector so I’m asking you guys. 😊

 

[u2slow]

If somebody messes with that conduit run, the gas pipe bond could be lost. It would be the same consideration for a metallic water pipe; bond it back to the panel.

 

[nrp3]

Is it black iron gas pipe? Does your codes allow the wiring within appliances to be suitable for bonding of black iron? I know the stainless flex stuff is a different story, at least down here.

 

[99cents]

Is it black iron gas pipe? Does your codes allow the wiring within appliances to be suitable for bonding of black iron? I know the stainless flex stuff is a different story, at least down here.

It’s black iron.

 

[99cents]

If somebody messes with that conduit run, the gas pipe bond could be lost. It would be the same consideration for a metallic water pipe; bond it back to the panel.

If anybody messes with anything, it could be lost. How many times have you seen a plumber change out a water tank and leave the bond dangling?

Anyway, you gave a reasonable explanation so I shouldn’t be snarky. 😊

 

[nrp3]

So you need a bond beyond the bond to the appliance? Or is this an inspector want?

 

[eddy current]

Inspector wants the gas line in a commercial kitchen bonded. There’s an EMT run next to the gas line but he won’t let me bond to that, he says it needs to go to the panel. I’m not going to fight him on it, I’m just wondering why. I’m in a new town and I don’t want to get on the wrong side of an inspector so I’m asking you guys. 😊

Is there some special amendment in that province?

Like nrp3 mentioned, gas appliances are already bonded through the wiring so a threaded gas pipe to the appliance does not need another bond

This is from 2021 Canadian code 10-700 Appendix B

“It should also be noted that the requirement in Rule 10-700 c) to provide equipotential bonding to a
metal gas piping system is not intended to apply to metal gas tubing. Attempts to bond metal gas tubing
with conventional bonding means can create a hazardous situation where the tubing can be punctured
by installation of the bonding means or by arcing between improperly secured bonding means during
faults or lightning strikes”

 

[99cents]

Is there some special amendment in that province?

Like nrp3 mentioned, gas appliances are already bonded through the wiring so a threaded gas pipe to the appliance does not need another bond

2021 Canadian code 10-700 Appendix B

It should also be noted that the requirement in Rule 10-700 c) to provide equipotential bonding to a
metal gas piping system is not intended to apply to metal gas tubing. Attempts to bond metal gas tubing
with conventional bonding means can create a hazardous situation where the tubing can be punctured
by installation of the bonding means or by arcing between improperly secured bonding means during
faults or lightning strikes

Yes, it appears to be a BC thing. These are strictly gas appliances, no wiring.

 

[nrp3]

So no blowers, controls, etc? Ok I see the need to bond.

 

[99cents]

So no blowers, controls, etc? Ok I see the need to bond.

Yes, I can see the need to bond, I’m just not sure why I can’t bond it to EMT (appreciating the elitists around here who say EMT is chitty for bonding) 😊).

 

[Navyguy]

Also, it might say somewhere that the emt is to be bonded, but it might not say emt can be used as a bonding conductor...

Cheers
John

 

[SparkBC]

Just got called on a gas bond while doing a service upgrade. Existing gas furnace and gas HWT have no bond on gas pipe either.

 

[vhk]

So no blowers, controls, etc? Ok I see the need to bond.

Sorry what do the blowers and controls have to do with the need for bonding? Or were you referring to the need to protect the controls from ground fault?

 

[MikeMan]

It's not well written, but like most equipotential bonding you have to take a #6 back to your grounding bus in your main distribution. The key here is also that a conductor is always being referenced. No substitute for the conductor is made. There are some random ones where you can just connect to the structure, but that's only for livestock barns. Maybe gas is less used in BC than yee-haw Alberta. Here its the base building electricians job to bond them after the meters since the gas piping for the RTU(AHU)'s is done at that point and a kitchen normally gets in early on a build to ensure they can get the power and gas supply they need. Had some small jurisdictions not even allow the connection indoors, clamp had to be outside after the meter.

For the appendix B 10-700 people are missing the key word in there... tubing. Like NPR mentioned "the stainless flex stuff" or normally here yellow (maybe pvc) coated flexible gas tubing. We don't have to bond that because there is no safe way to do it. A clamp would just crush it. But the tubing will only be between a wall outlet and the kitchen appliance.
First shot sucks, seconds pretty good. Example of what I tried to describe. In both cases the #6 is coming through the wall, it's not just the lines being tied together. Second one is a KFC I did. The base guy was a joke. All his exterior sconces were DAMP rated, couldn't understand why the inspector failed him and was forcing him to install gaskets on all of them. 🤣

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[joe-nwt]

It's not well written, but like most equipotential bonding you have to take a #6 back to your grounding bus in your main distribution.

Care to supply a code reference?

The key here is also that a conductor is always being referenced. No substitute for the conductor is made.

Second last paragraph of 10-700 in Appendix B may be of interest to you.

Maybe you have code amendments on these in British California?

 

[MikeMan]

Care to supply a code reference?



Second last paragraph of 10-700 in Appendix B may be of interest to you.

Maybe you have code amendments on these in British California?

Uhhh code 10-700 through 10-708? It's the lack of a code like 10-614(6) that is my argument.
Couldn't find anything for BC, got: "Rules 10-702 to 10-708 serve as a guideline for bonding non-electrical equipment to ground. To protect against loss of bonding, approved lugs are required for a positive connection. Due to the possibility of damage, a bonding conductor no smaller than No. 6 American Wire Gauge (AWG) copper or No. 4 AWG aluminum should be used." for Alberta.

https://open.alberta.ca/dataset/5028a882-5605-41a2-a987-28ac75efbde2/resource/9601e06b-403d-41a7-af86-25c8ec31c806/download/ma-standata-bulletin-21-ecb-010-rev1-2022-07.pdf

Again, wording very bad. Look at these wires connected to things waves hands. Ok... what are those wires connected to?

Second last paragraph in a informative(non-mandatory)section of the code book... meaning it's not code and not enforceable. But sure, only have my 2018 on me(and CSA digital at that Paragraphs are sometimes difficult to identify. Like is this part of the livestock stuff? But then computer floor...). Second last paragraph:

"Conductive materials used for equipotential bonding need not be wires and can take the form of structural steel, bus, metallic framing and support structures, conductive static mats, or the support structure of a computer room floor. Each of these materials, when adequately interconnected, form and effective equipotential plane."

"when adequately interconnected" is wonderfully grey. Got some engineering papers to clear that up Joe?
That's the crux I guess. I run a #6 from my grounding bus to a clamp on the pipe, there is no question, it's good. Clamp a #6 to the pipe then like screw a lug to some structural steel. Ok now break out your megger and prove it's good enough.


In my searching I did see some bonding of the flexible lines... they just kinda put a clamp on close to the connection and just, what looks like 10 or 12, again... connect it to... something.

New Requirements for CSST Installation - Fire Engineering: Firefighter Training and Fire Service News, Rescue

Gregory Havel discusses the fireground implications of the use of corrugated stainless-steel tubing jacketed with yellow PVC or polyethylene as piping for natural and LP gas.

www.fireengineering.com

 

[Mike in Canada]

Paragraphs are sometimes difficult to identify. Like is this part of the livestock stuff? But then computer floor...). Second last paragraph:

Bonding in livestock areas is super important because so much stuff is stainless steel and is touching skin. Having even a tiny bit of stray voltage on a milking machine will cause a cow distress, and for good reason! I can't even imagine how much that would suck. I can't wrap my head around it. Anyway, 'dairy parlours' and whatnot are bonded like gas stations - like it really matters.

Getting back to the original question, I suppose the worry is that some day down the road a section of pipe might be replaced with some kind of flex tube or pex-like creation that does wonderful things for vibration and expansion isolation, but destroys the bond continuity, so if you rely on that pipe to provide bond then maybe that bond disappears at some point in the future. On one hand that seems reasonable, but on the other hand I find myself wondering why we shouldn't let the future take care of itself. I mean, we don't have to run every residential circuit with #6 just in case some moron in the future replaces the 15A breaker with a 60A breaker, right? I guess the problem here is that we are relying on a DIFFERENT TRADE to maintain our bond.

 

[joe-nwt]

Each of these materials, when adequately interconnected, form and effective equipotential plane."

There is nothing grey. So you run a #6 to the black iron gas line. Do you run another #6 to the next section of black pipe past the joint? Jumper every joint?

Of course not. So now that we have established an equipontential plane can be created without the use of a #6 copper conductor to each part of the plane, go back and read the whole section again. Your EP needs to start at the ground bus, yes, and realistically how else would you make that connection without a copper conductor? After that, the code has allowances for the interconnection of the various parts of the plane.

 

[Mobius87]

It is an inspector requirement here in Southern Alberta to run it back to the panel as well, despite there not being a specific rule for it. The reasoning they give is to reduce the chance of having the bond path interrupted. I've questioned it after being called on it awhile back because I ran some #6 from a gas line to a nearby junction box and tied it into the bond wire there. Theoretically that should have been sufficient as there is no provision in the code that calls for it to be installed back to the service. There is, however, a mention in the Standata for bonding gas lines that suggests the bond be run back to the service or grounding electrode. It wasn't a hill to die on so that is the way it gets done now.

 

[MikeMan]

Probably the same thing others have said mobius. The box can be removed in a reno. With the bond going back to the main distribution it is unlikely to ever be touched again. Similar with the suit panel, the panel can be moved in a reno, but it's unlikely.