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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I have a residential customer who bought a 115V, 1400 Watt Profitec Pro 700 Dual Boiler Espresso Machine. https://www.wholelattelove.com/products/profitec-pro-700-dual-boiler-espresso-machine

I was called in because the GFI receptacle was occasionally tripping whenever the machine was being used. The countertop GFIR protected three downstream outlets, the last of which has the fancy coffee brewer plugged into it.

I changed out the GFIR and now the customer says it is tripping with more frequency. I understand that the new GFIR could have a slightly lower ground fault threshold than the last one, but I also wonder if it is simply a intermittent fault in the machine. Customer reported today that with waffle iron plugged into one of the other protected outlets, tripping was almost immediate, which I would think was caused by accumulated ground fault current.

The Espresso machine is located right beside the sink, so I hesitate to put it on a non-GFI circuit. I could change all the involved countertop outlets to GFIRs and see what happens, but this seems a long & expensive route to find out if the machine is defective.

How would you handle this?
 

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.....How would you handle this?
Megger the equipment plugged in.

Supco makes a megger just for this purpose. Color-coded LED results are simple for the non-electrician manager to understand. Model M500.

If the GFCI (not GFIR) protects other receptacles downstream, perhaps the problem lies there as well.

If the manager/owner/whoever starts to cry, "But it has worked fine until now.... it must me your outlet!", remind them that your roof worked just fine until it started leaking.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks 480. Yes GFCI. "GFIR" is my personal notation for a Ground Fault circuit Interrupter Receptacle. I should know better than to slip up in such a major way here.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I think the time has come for me to learn more about megging and to purchase a megger. I've been resisting doing so, but I see many proponents here at ET, even in the residential field. I'll have to read up on some of MDshrunk's posts on the topic. Until I learn more, can someone tell me if I can safely put a megger on a $2700 coffee machine that has a digital display and possibly some type of electronic controls? Thanks.
 

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I think the time has come for me to learn more about megging and to purchase a megger. I've been resisting doing so, but I see many proponents here at ET, even in the residential field. I'll have to read up on some of MDshrunk's posts on the topic. Until I learn more, can someone tell me if I can safely put a megger on a $2700 coffee machine that has a digital display and possibly some type of electronic controls? Thanks.
If you get a megger that can output 100v, you're fine.
 

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This big beast is pretty large.

I suspect it may be an issue like how refrigerators are not put on GFCI protected circuits, because of the start up draw trips the GFCI.

The megger might show that.
 

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Possibly similar to the way hot tub inline heater elements fail and leak to ground.
Yeah, I have replaced those. And the element might show good continuity and normal resistance, but it will immediately trip the breaker when on.
 

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if you don't own a megger, the poor mans version will work fine for your purposes.
Take 120v hot from a non gfci source and attach it to the hot prong of the espresso machine either with an alligator clip or a female cord cap. Set your multimeter to volts AC. Put one lead on AC neutral (not the cord) and 1 lead on the ground prong of the espresso machine. You should read 0 volts or damned close to 0. Repeat same test with 120v hot to neutral prong of espresso machine just for good measure.
If you read significantly more then 0 volts on either test, the machine is leaking voltage to ground.
All that being said, the others are probably correct. The heater in it probably has a pin hole in it that is growing larger as it rusts.
 

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Another option would be to remove the line-load connection in the first GFCI in the circuit and pigtail them together. Put the pigtails on the line side of the GFCI.

Then go to the rest of the receptacles downstream on put individual GFCIs in each one.

Then, if there's a fault in one piece of equipment, the particular GFCI it's plugged into will identify the culprit.
 

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Another option would be to remove the line-load connection in the first GFCI in the circuit and pigtail them together. Put the pigtails on the line side of the GFCI.

Then go to the rest of the receptacles downstream on put individual GFCIs in each one.

Then, if there's a fault in one piece of equipment, the particular GFCI it's plugged into will identify the culprit.
Why not just use the other set of "line" holes rather than pigtailing?
 

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Another option would be to remove the line-load connection in the first GFCI in the circuit and pigtail them together. Put the pigtails on the line side of the GFCI.

Then go to the rest of the receptacles downstream on put individual GFCIs in each one.

Then, if there's a fault in one piece of equipment, the particular GFCI it's plugged into will identify the culprit.
That's the universal style for commercial circuits hereabouts. :)

It's bad enough in a single family residence -- to go chasing all over to find the tripped GFCI receptacle -- in a commercial setting the situation becomes wholly impractical.

Even as I post, some service call electrician is re-setting some homeowner's GFCI.

Hint: start in the garage... any location near by the panel. Figure on the EC to have brutally daisy-chained dependencies all over the structure. :eek:
 

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This big beast is pretty large.

I suspect it may be an issue like how refrigerators are not put on GFCI protected circuits, because of the start up draw trips the GFCI.

The megger might show that.
Under normal operating conditions inrush/startup current should not trip a GFCI
 

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Wouldn't it just kill you to find out that the problem lies with the switching power supply to the digital logic?

[ These are design prone to extensive use of capacitors.

European RCD tolerate much more before tripping than standard NEMA GFCI receptacles. ]

Just a WAG.
 

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Under normal operating conditions inrush/startup current should not trip a GFCI
It shouldn't, but it does with fridges, even new ones.
And in new construction, I noticed they don't ever put a GFCI receptacle in the spot assigned for the fridge. By code it is not required, and I have heard some electrical contractors say they tend to trip.
 

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It shouldn't, but it does with fridges, even new ones.
And in new construction, I noticed they don't ever put a GFCI receptacle in the spot assigned for the fridge. By code it is not required, and I have heard some electrical contractors say they tend to trip.



I did not think fridges trip GFCI's .... We do not because the GFCI will be Behind the Fridge " . Not a good place for one . I never put Food on a GFCI , looking for trouble .




pete
 

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It shouldn't, but it does with fridges, even new ones.
And in new construction, I noticed they don't ever put a GFCI receptacle in the spot assigned for the fridge. By code it is not required, and I have heard some electrical contractors say they tend to trip.
It's true that many refrigerators will trip a GFCI, but it has nothing to do with inrush. It has to do with a ground fault in the refrigerator greater than 4ma in magnitude. Mullion heaters and the hermetic compressor are the two big culprits. If the fridge is tripping a GFCI, the fridge has an electrical problem. Simple as that. I don't care if it's new, old, expensive or cheap. It needs fixed.
 
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