HI Asks: New construction 100% full Panel?
Ok... HI is going to ask a question again.
New Construction, reasonably current code as they had all AFCI's and new Energy stuff....I was doing the final walkthrough inspection...
Question: Can you have an main panelboard that has NO room for expansion on day one?
The Panel was FULL of AFCI's, two Tandem Breakers, and a handfull of wafer (thin double) breakers. There were no open slots. There were no slots that could be converted to wafers becasue they were all AFCI's.
If you wanted to add a single breaker, you would have to add another pannelboard, move two AFCI's to that Panel to make room for it's breaker, and then put the new circuit in the new pannelbaord.
I thought there was a rule that you had to have SOME room for expansion... (remember I don't do code, I leave that to the experts...YOU)
thoughts, comments? (references?)
New Construction, reasonably current code as they had all AFCI's and new Energy stuff....I was doing the final walkthrough inspection...
Question: Can you have an main panelboard that has NO room for expansion on day one?
The Panel was FULL of AFCI's, two Tandem Breakers, and a handfull of wafer (thin double) breakers. There were no open slots. There were no slots that could be converted to wafers becasue they were all AFCI's.
If you wanted to add a single breaker, you would have to add another pannelboard, move two AFCI's to that Panel to make room for it's breaker, and then put the new circuit in the new pannelbaord.
I thought there was a rule that you had to have SOME room for expansion... (remember I don't do code, I leave that to the experts...YOU)
thoughts, comments? (references?)
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90.8 Wiring Planning.
(A) Future Expansion and Convenience. Plans and specifications that provide ample space in raceways, spare raceways, and additional spaces allow for future increases in electric power and communications circuits. Distribution centers located in readily accessible locations provide convenience and safety of operation.
That's all the NEC has to say. AFAIK, if you can rearrange existing circuits to be able to install a subpanel, then it's legal (provided the service is capable of supplying the additional loads).
(A) Future Expansion and Convenience. Plans and specifications that provide ample space in raceways, spare raceways, and additional spaces allow for future increases in electric power and communications circuits. Distribution centers located in readily accessible locations provide convenience and safety of operation.
That's all the NEC has to say. AFAIK, if you can rearrange existing circuits to be able to install a subpanel, then it's legal (provided the service is capable of supplying the additional loads).
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3,343 Posts
I'll add one to 480's...
90.1 Purpose.
(B) Adequacy. This Code contains provisions that are considered necessary for safety. Compliance therewith and proper maintenance results in an installation that is essentially free from hazard but not necessarily efficient, convenient, or adequate for good service or future expansion of
electrical use.
Informational Note: Hazards often occur because of over-loading of wiring systems by methods or usage not in con-formity with this Code. This occurs because initial wiring did not provide for increases in the use of electricity. An initial adequate installation and reasonable provisions for system changes provide for future increases in the use of electricity.
Pete
90.1 Purpose.
(B) Adequacy. This Code contains provisions that are considered necessary for safety. Compliance therewith and proper maintenance results in an installation that is essentially free from hazard but not necessarily efficient, convenient, or adequate for good service or future expansion of
electrical use.
Informational Note: Hazards often occur because of over-loading of wiring systems by methods or usage not in con-formity with this Code. This occurs because initial wiring did not provide for increases in the use of electricity. An initial adequate installation and reasonable provisions for system changes provide for future increases in the use of electricity.
Pete
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291 Posts
Have they amended 8-108(2) where you are Rollie?
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Yes.
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8,253 Posts
Although it's good practice, it is not required to leave any unused bus space.
I always install full 40 space resi panels and generally have about 10-15 left open. Sometimes however, they end up stuffed full. Some houses just have more stuff :thumbsup:
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Ok, not required to leave any space...but good practice if you can...
Makes adding that new circuit really expensive....
Oh Well...
Makes adding that new circuit really expensive....
Oh Well...
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39,532 Posts
Looks like the guy that did the job had a poor game plan and ended up making a mess.
What is the total number of circuits?
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8,253 Posts
THAT is the important question. If it's a 40 space well, that's the way it goes.
If the clown installed a 20 or 30 space panel and jammed it full....
:jester:
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In whatever sparkies defense, the evolution of dedicated circuits (or perhaps those of us that just like to dedicate them) seems destined to send those 30 cir panels to the museum soon.....~CS~
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well, they did trash the old 42 place code....and they do manufacture 60 place boards now....
~CS~
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You can't always plan for future expansion.
Should we be required to install pull boxes and pipe to the attic and the crawl spaces? I know that would be a good idea but sooner or later someone is going to end up spending the money. Where would this end?
With the EC getting raped by the GC on a new build, you can better believe it won't be the EC. When every penny counts on those types of jobs, if an EC can save $20 on a panel, you better believe they are going to.
New construction is cutthroat and that's why I don't do it.
But, since the cheap EC installed a 24 circuit panel and now the HO wants to remodel, I can make a killing by selling an upgrade. :thumbup:
Should we be required to install pull boxes and pipe to the attic and the crawl spaces? I know that would be a good idea but sooner or later someone is going to end up spending the money. Where would this end?
With the EC getting raped by the GC on a new build, you can better believe it won't be the EC. When every penny counts on those types of jobs, if an EC can save $20 on a panel, you better believe they are going to.
New construction is cutthroat and that's why I don't do it.
But, since the cheap EC installed a 24 circuit panel and now the HO wants to remodel, I can make a killing by selling an upgrade. :thumbup:
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That is true.
I would bet that S&D would still make a 40 plus a sub cheaper that a 60.
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