[joeisaacs]

Hi All,

When bidding lighting projects, do you charge the customer a flat labor rate per fixture or do you bill your normal hourly rate based on the estimated time it will take to complete? Any advantage of one methodology vs the other?

Any tips for making lighting jobs more profitable (aside from simply increasing the price) would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Joe

 

[telsa]

Hi All,

When bidding lighting projects, do you charge the customer a flat labor rate per fixture or do you bill your normal hourly rate based on the estimated time it will take to complete? Any advantage of one methodology vs the other?

Any tips for making lighting jobs more profitable (aside from simply increasing the price) would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Joe

It screams for a piece-work bid.

Not that'd you pitch it that way.

&&&

Think it through, the only way to make a job more profitable is to increase your price or decrease your costs.

How can anyone on an Internet forum pull that off ? :whistling2:

This is no place to give you the universal lecture on how to structure your labor force.

You're going to have to learn how to bid -- without handrails or training wheels.

Good luck. :thumbup:

 

[Southeast Power]

It screams for a piece-work bid.

Not that'd you pitch it that way.

&&&

Think it through, the only way to make a job more profitable is to increase your price or decrease your costs.

How can anyone on an Internet forum pull that off ? :whistling2:

This is no place to give you the universal lecture on how to structure your labor force.

You're going to have to learn how to bid -- without handrails or training wheels.

Good luck. :thumbup:

Oh.
Thank you for your NOTHING!!

 

[Southeast Power]

Hi All,

When bidding lighting projects, do you charge the customer a flat labor rate per fixture or do you bill your normal hourly rate based on the estimated time it will take to complete? Any advantage of one methodology vs the other?

Any tips for making lighting jobs more profitable (aside from simply increasing the price) would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Joe

I have been experimenting with per unit pricing

I have been using $10 per lamp
This includes mobilizing, demobilizing, packing up the old lamps and recycling them.
Recycling is about $2 per lamp for us to get rid of.

I have also been using $30 per component.
Sensor, driver or ballast swap.

These numbers work for me.

I plan everyting and make sure the guys have every specialized tool they need.
One sensor job we did and had a good measure of success was a sensor installation job to retrofit hundreds of stairwell fixtures.

I had to KO a hole in the side of the fixture.
I found a couple of stud punches on Ebay that punched a 7/8" hole.
I cut down the front angle of the stud punch with a portaband to get a close cut on the fixture body.


Next we had to what I call "husk" the sensors.
This was to get them out of the over pack cartons of 10, then open the individual box the were in.
Install two hole wagos on them.
Repack them into the over pack cartons in groups of 20.
Distribute the "husked" senors on every 10th floor.

One grunt type guy would open the fixture, punch the hole and install the sensor.
The more experienced guy would wire the fixture and close it back up.
I thought that maybe they could do 60 per day. 30 before lunch and 30 after lunch.
They picked up enough efficiency to routinely install 100 or more units in an 8 hour day and up to 120 on the best day.

The punch really helped out. Drilling them was just too much of a mess. It left metal shavings and metallic pendejos everywhere and was too hard to clean up.

Our only trash in the stairwell was the 7/8" slug. and two black pieces of insulation from stripping the two wires feeding the ballast.

The cardboard was managed by breaking it down and stacking it in the over pack cartons as we husked it.


I use the same numbers for several of the retrofits Ive done.

If I need rental equipment, I just use the monthly rate.

 

[Bootss]

Jrannis,so are you just dividing up all the job/task ,material,permit license fees,expenses etc. into the amount of bulbs? With a (unit cost) per bulb/fixture retrofit? (say with a 25-50 bulb min. or something)Or assign a certain unit price that you would estimate that would be profitable and try to just beat that while you're doing the job?

Do you think it's a worthwhile profitable pursuit? Should you just leave this type of job to the lighting specialty contractor?

 

[Southeast Power]

Jrannis,so are you just dividing up all the job/task ,material,permit license fees,expenses etc. into the amount of bulbs? With a (unit cost) per bulb/fixture retrofit? (say with a 25-50 bulb min. or something)Or assign a certain unit price that you would estimate that would be profitable and try to just beat that while you're doing the job?

Do you think it's a worthwhile profitable pursuit? Should you just leave this type of job to the lighting specialty contractor?

Leo,
The people that sell these upgrades to owners are always looking for some type of unit pricing to plug into their ROI calculator.
What I have done is take my cost and work it into what ROI I think will help them sell the job.
I need to "net", whatever that means to everyone in their own way, at least a grand a day for every carcass I drag onto a jobsite.
That is the difference between my "cost" whatever that means to everyone in their own way, and my walk away price.

 

[Bootss]

Leo,
The people that sell these upgrades to owners are always looking for some type of unit pricing to plug into their ROI calculator.
What I have done is take my cost and work it into what ROI I think will help them sell the job.
I need to "net", whatever that means to everyone in their own way, at least a grand a day for every carcass I drag onto a jobsite.
That is the difference between my "cost" whatever that means to everyone in their own way, and my walk away price.

Seems like the lighting contractors I worked with in the past has been " hard money" drudgery type of jobs/work.High competition ,low margins nothin really much to write home about profits.The building managers /owners probably getting 10 different estimates on each project.

Also dealing with any type of rebate from the poco might just be a big headache .Who acts as "the bank" buying all the materials? (hiding the material markup from the building owner might be a headache also) Not sure if it's worth it.

 

[Bootss]

Leo,
The people that sell these upgrades to owners are always looking for some type of unit pricing to plug into their ROI calculator.
What I have done is take my cost and work it into what ROI I think will help them sell the job.
I need to "net", whatever that means to everyone in their own way, at least a grand a day for every carcass I drag onto a jobsite.
That is the difference between my "cost" whatever that means to everyone in their own way, and my walk away price.

Seems like the lighting contractors I worked for in the past has been " hard money" drudgery type of jobs/work.High competition ,low margins nothin really much to write home about profits.The building managers /owners probably getting 10 different estimates on each project.

Also dealing with any type of rebate from the poco might just be a big headache .Who acts as "the bank" buying all the materials? (hiding the material markup from the building owner might be a headache also) Not sure if it's worth it.

 

[Southeast Power]

Seems like the lighting contractors I worked for in the past has been " hard money" drudgery type of jobs/work.High competition ,low margins nothin really much to write home about profits.The building managers /owners probably getting 10 different estimates on each project.

Also dealing with any type of rebate from the poco might just be a big headache .Who acts as "the bank" buying all the materials? (hiding the material markup from the building owner might be a headache also) Not sure if it's worth it.

You can say that again.:laughing:

 

[Bootss]

You can say that again.:laughing:

With that said ,I might look into doing some smaller retrofit jobs.
:laughing::laughing:

 

[telsa]

Oh.
Thank you for your NOTHING!!

You're perfectly welcome.

My mind reading and tele-visionary skills have let me down again.

So, sorry.

When his CODB is up on the Internet, I might start lobbing darts.

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

 

[telsa]

]I have been experimenting with per unit pricing[/size]

I have been using $10 per lamp
This includes mobilizing, demobilizing, packing up the old lamps and recycling them.
Recycling is about $2 per lamp for us to get rid of.

I have also been using $30 per component.
Sensor, driver or ballast swap.

These numbers work for me.

I plan everyting and make sure the guys have every specialized tool they need.
One sensor job we did and had a good measure of success was a sensor installation job to retrofit hundreds of stairwell fixtures.

I had to KO a hole in the side of the fixture.
I found a couple of stud punches on Ebay that punched a 7/8" hole.
I cut down the front angle of the stud punch with a portaband to get a close cut on the fixture body.


Next we had to what I call "husk" the sensors.
This was to get them out of the over pack cartons of 10, then open the individual box the were in.
Install two hole wagos on them.
Repack them into the over pack cartons in groups of 20.
Distribute the "husked" senors on every 10th floor.

One grunt type guy would open the fixture, punch the hole and install the sensor.
The more experienced guy would wire the fixture and close it back up.
I thought that maybe they could do 60 per day. 30 before lunch and 30 after lunch.
They picked up enough efficiency to routinely install 100 or more units in an 8 hour day and up to 120 on the best day.

The punch really helped out. Drilling them was just too much of a mess. It left metal shavings and metallic pendejos everywhere and was too hard to clean up.

Our only trash in the stairwell was the 7/8" slug. and two black pieces of insulation from stripping the two wires feeding the ballast.

The cardboard was managed by breaking it down and stacking it in the over pack cartons as we husked it.


I use the same numbers for several of the retrofits Ive done.

If I need rental equipment, I just use the monthly rate.

You are too much. :blink:

You promptly come back with a piecework pricing scheme, yourself !

That's got to be five chuckles.

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

 

[Southeast Power]

Every bid is counting installed items or assemblies.
It doesn't matter to me how the number is presented to the client, it's going to be a number no matter what so, go ahead and divide the final price into installed units.
Changing 1000 lamps.
Ok.
$10 per lamp.
Got it.
$10,000
Thank you.

 

[ChunkyDrummer]

Every bid is counting installed items or assemblies.
It doesn't matter to me how the number is presented to the client, it's going to be a number no matter what so, go ahead and divide the final price into installed units.
Changing 1000 lamps.
Ok.
$10 per lamp.
Got it.
$10,000
Thank you.

Unless they want the unit pricing for future work ie. You did the last job of changing out 1000 lamps @ $10 per for 10K. I have 3 lamps I need changed out here's your $30. It doesn't work that way. If there's a known amount of lamps to change out it's fine because you'll build everything in to the overall price.

 

[Southeast Power]

Unless they want the unit pricing for future work ie. You did the last job of changing out 1000 lamps @ $10 per for 10K. I have 3 lamps I need changed out here's your $30. It doesn't work that way. If there's a known amount of lamps to change out it's fine because you'll build everything in to the overall price.

No,
It has to be a grand a day clear per carcass on the site.
this would be about 50 to 60 lamps per hour minimum.
You have to hop on it and find out your efficiencies. It isnt going to be in any book.
If I used NECA 3 for a lamp change I wold have to figure in the break one, lose one, take one home numbers. Nice if you can get it but, I only use those numbers for change orders.

 

[ChunkyDrummer]

No,
It has to be a grand a day clear per carcass on the site.
this would be about 50 to 60 lamps per hour minimum.
You have to hop on it and find out your efficiencies. It isnt going to be in any book.
If I used NECA 3 for a lamp change I wold have to figure in the break one, lose one, take one home numbers. Nice if you can get it but, I only use those numbers for change orders.

Exactly. That's what I was trying to get across and could have laid it out better. Unit prices are ok as long as minimums are attached to it or you set thresholds. 0-20 lamps $XX.XX per lamp 21-50 $YY.YY etc.

 

[Southeast Power]

Unless they want the unit pricing for future work ie. You did the last job of changing out 1000 lamps @ $10 per for 10K. I have 3 lamps I need changed out here's your $30. It doesn't work that way. If there's a known amount of lamps to change out it's fine because you'll build everything in to the overall price.

Chunk,
a three man crew structure, me paying PW/ union rates cost me about $50 per hour for a JW or $400 per day or $1200 for an entire crew.
That is 40 lamps. Right? 40 lamps x $10 per lamp. That will pay for a guy in 45 minutes.
Labor will be on the money side in under 2 hours for the entire crew.

 

[Southeast Power]

Exactly. That's what I was trying to get across and could have laid it out better. Unit prices are ok as long as minimums are attached to it or you set thresholds. 0-20 lamps $XX.XX per lamp 21-50 $YY.YY etc.

Yes.
I consider the scope of work or amount of lamps and then the difficulty of the job. such as parking garages have a certain % of cars to work around and also some 2 story ramps.
I know the answer to the test as the consumer needs to have an ROI of under 3 years to have a fast sale, under 5 years for high executive approval.
Some I can be $8 per lamp and make money, some I have to be at $15.
I dont mind averaging a couple of jobs together to make my margin.
Ill take a 20% job and then a 50% job and be good to hit that 35% sweet spot.
But, the numbers, with a productive crew can be irresistible.

 

[Bootss]

Do you charge the same shop right for each man or do you adjust the rates down to reflect skill level?

Do any of the commercial estimating books give any formulas or tips on estimating lighting retrofit?

 

[ChunkyDrummer]

Do you charge the same shop right for each man or do you adjust the rates down to reflect skill level?

Do any of the commercial estimating books give any formulas or tips on estimating lighting retrofit?

For us it's different on every job depending on competition and how badly we want the job. On really competitive bids we'll figure out average man hours and average crew then input the number of each classification we'll have on the job to get a blended rate.

I'm not sure if the commercial books have lighting retrofits. I'll check NECA on Monday.