[captkirk]

So whats the deal with them...? are they just a fancy rechargeable battery or what...? How long do they last in relation to litium/ion? How long do they need to charge or refill with Hydrogen. why hasn't it taken off yet..? is it just a gimmick..? whats your opinion...if this turns political im gonna take my shoe off and wing it at your head...im actually interested

 

[Meadow]

So whats the deal with them...? are they just a fancy rechargeable battery or what...? How long do they last in relation to litium/ion? How long do they need to charge or refill with Hydrogen. why hasn't it taken off yet..? is it just a gimmick..? whats your opinion...if this turns political im gonna take my shoe off and wing it at your head...im actually interested

They break water into hydrogen and oxygen when current is passed through the cells. The reverse can be done as well. The technology has been used in cogeneration buildings as well as busses/alternative fuel vehicles. I don't believe they are a gimmick., but rather something that will be part of the green movement and here to stay.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Fuel cells make power with a chemical process like batteries, but it is not a reversible process... in other words you cannot recharge them. They need a continuous source of fuel and oxygen to make electrical energy. They can run as long as you supply fuel and oxygen. I know the phone companies use then for back up up power on some of their field mounted switching equipment. I think they take a short period of time to come online so the phone companies have a UPS to handle the start up time.

 

[BBQ]

We have installed at least a few and will be doing more soon.

They will make electricity out of hydrogen or natural gas with the only byproduct being water and heat.

As far as why they have not taken off, I would say expensive, very technical, hard to service and you still have to supply them with fuel.

The two I was involved with could produce 800 amps of 480 volt 3 phase power, the waste heat is used to heat the building.

Down sides, it can't cold start, you need utility power to get them operational.

The ones I worked with could not handle sudden big load changes, the load had to be brought on in steps with time between for it to stablize.

I am sure they will get better.

 

[Haxwoper]

Like anything else, they need support from the masses. Until then, it won't go anywhere.

As for cars, you'd need a large infrustructure of fueling stations. Hydrogen is quick to refuel, but the entire process of setting up and refueling the stations as well as making the hydrogen is supposed to be expensive and involved. Much like electric cars, although they seem very "green", when the entire process is considered there is still a fair amount of pollution.

 

[Haxwoper]

They will make electricity out of hydrogen or natural gas with the only byproduct being water and heat.

If I understand it correctly, hydrogen has to be separated from the natural gas which uses energy and is why you need power to start it. It also leads to inefficiency vs. put hydrogen delivery.

 

[BBQ]

If I understand it correctly, hydrogen has to be separated from the natural gas which uses energy and is why you need power to start it. It also leads to inefficiency vs. put hydrogen delivery.

Could be, and the two I worked on were intended to be co-gen and online 24/7.

But once online could keep going without the utility. Huge units with pumps and fans. Inside the enclsure looked more like a NASA rocket than a generator. Heat shielding and a ton of stainless steel lines with fancy controls, valves etc.

 

[papaotis]

so, another un=proven time tested save the planet gimmick?:001_huh:

 

[BBQ]

Here is the same model I have worked with.

 

[backstay]

so, another un=proven time tested save the planet gimmick?:001_huh:

There are not a gimmick, given some time and R&D they could eliminate most generators. They aren't a green type of renewable energy.

 

[macmikeman]

They are quiet though right?

 

[Meadow]

We have installed at least a few and will be doing more soon.

They will make electricity out of hydrogen or natural gas with the only byproduct being water and heat.

As far as why they have not taken off, I would say expensive, very technical, hard to service and you still have to supply them with fuel.

The two I was involved with could produce 800 amps of 480 volt 3 phase power, the waste heat is used to heat the building.

Down sides, it can't cold start, you need utility power to get them operational.

The ones I worked with could not handle sudden big load changes, the load had to be brought on in steps with time between for it to stablize.

I am sure they will get better.

Or black start them through on site cogeneration. But I do agree with your post, they are insanely complicated and take load in steps. Right now they are still primitive but in a few years time they might actually be competing with micro turbines since the have no major moving parts.

This is usually what fuel cells are competing against: http://www.capstoneturbine.com/

 

[ohmontherange]

They are not a gimmick. Been around for quite a few years. Reliable enough that NASA used them for the Apollo missions and on the shuttle.

A niche commercial market.

As far as widespread commercial use ( hundreds of KW or MW capacity )
not on par (cost wise) with diesel or gas fired prime movers / alternator sets.

 

[hardworkingstiff]

Just out of curiosity, if you combine hydrogen and oxygen through combustion, what are the by products? Heat, ....?

 

[azgard]

They are not a gimmick. Been around for quite a few years. Reliable enough that NASA used them for the Apollo missions and on the shuttle.

A niche commercial market.

As far as widespread commercial use ( hundreds of KW or MW capacity )
not on par (cost wise) with diesel or gas fired prime movers / alternator sets.

Adding on to this some of the big considerations for it's use is power density, reliability, and waste management(which is NOT just a 'green' factor, its a logistics factor).

 

[99cents]

If you're really interested, Stanford offered this course for free. It's possible they will do it again sometime in the new year.

https://class.stanford.edu/courses/Engineering/Solar/Fall2013/about

 

[Big John]

Just out of curiosity, if you combine hydrogen and oxygen through combustion, what are the by products? Heat, ....?

Isn't it heat and water vapor?

Those are neat, but it's way too modern for me. If one of our customers has equipment from the 80's, it's "new".