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Induction lighting to replace HID

30K views 126 replies 27 participants last post by  JEA926 
#1 ·
I've got an interesting project I wanted to share with you guys, as I'm pretty impressed with the technology I'm seeing out there. We get calls every week now on a new company in China selling LED's and the American counterparts hocking them. Everything from HID replacements to Fluorescent Tube replacements.

Be careful, as there are tons of issues with that product out there. We won't put in anything that isn't backed by the manufacturer, so that eliminates most LED products right away. It's coming, but by all accounts, most of the product is not mature enough yet to be reliable on a large scale or in challenging environments.

We are dealing with a manufacturing facility that has around 300+ 250W HID fixtures mounted in a wash down sanitary environment. The lamps are horizontal, and the fixture is a Rig a Light, and it looks similar in nature to a gas station canopy light. All fixtures are sealed to the ceiling to prevent any moisture from getting on top of them to spur bacteria growth. (Food manufacturing)

info on induction

We are faced with either removing the entire fixture for this client, scraping the old sealant off of the stainless steel ceiling, replace the fixture with an energy efficient option, reseal around every fixture, etc. OR

we can retrofit them.

We were approached by a company that manufactures and backs induction lighting. They will take that fixture (Bought on their own dime), create a retrofit kit for it with an induction system, and re-UL certify the fixture against failure.



Why induction? Much higher CRI, and not as sensitive to cold. A 250 W HID lamp uses close to 290Watts with ballast, and the comparable induction will run about 120W. Running 24/6, that is a massive savings. They don't have to remove the fixtures. They remain in place, and we will be able to purchase retro kits to make a speedy upgrade. (Less downtime since they operate such long hours) Induction is also backed to last 100,000 thousand hours compared to the standard horizontal HID mount 10,000, so the customer saves big time on relamping cycles.

I'll be placing samples in a few weeks in the environment, and am looking forward to seeing results first hand. I'll grab pictures.

Has anyone dealt with induction yet? It's a bit pricey, but for 100k hours of operation, it's worth a look. LED in white only lasts about 50,000 hours, so it's hard to make a business case for it yet. By the way, it's Fulham backing the product.

they also make induction wallpacks, some high bay stuff I don't care for yet, and it appears that CFL replacements are on the way.
 
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#3 ·
Are they 2x4 troffers with LED tubes? I'd be curious if they are using indirect light and how many tubes if so. The reflector kits do no good with LED, as the LED's are only on one side of the tubes and you can't take advantage of the 360 degree light given off of fluorescent tubes. Also be curious to know wattage on those. We've seen so little wattage difference, and life on better T8 lamps of 42,000 hours, that is makes no sense to go LED.

:eek:

Wow, I'm really surprised by that. Someone is "going green" to the nth degree. Maybe there is an incentive in place. Hope it goes well, but love to hear more about it. That's a sweet project. :thumbsup:
 
#15 ·
LED & Induction

Hello,
Definitely be leary of these Asian LED manufacturers.
Have you consider US LED manufacturers such as Gardco and Beta for exterior units? - the quality is outstanding and their LED rated life is 100,000 hours. Some are even rated at 150,000 hours.
Pricier because it is US made, but a reputable manufacturer.
Is the lamp included in with your induction retrofit? Although the life is long, the lamp cost is over $300. I proposed using an induction for replacement of a 150W metal halide and found with the cost of the fixtures and lamp, the payback was not good. Your retrofit may be a better deal. Just make sure the whole fixture is UL listed and not just the retrofit kit.
 
#16 ·
Hello,
Definitely be leary of these Asian LED manufacturers.
Have you consider US LED manufacturers such as Gardco and Beta for exterior units? - the quality is outstanding and their LED rated life is 100,000 hours. Some are even rated at 150,000 hours.
Pricier because it is US made, but a reputable manufacturer.
Is the lamp included in with your induction retrofit? Although the life is long, the lamp cost is over $300. I proposed using an induction for replacement of a 150W metal halide and found with the cost of the fixtures and lamp, the payback was not good. Your retrofit may be a better deal. Just make sure the whole fixture is UL listed and not just the retrofit kit.
Yes, the whole fixture will be re UL listed. Very important indeed.

On the LED's, LED's last 100k hours if they are in their natural color. When they are treated to put out white light they typically last 50k hours. They may go longer, but the light output is supposed to diminish. None of the reputable LED companies out there are claiming 100k hours from what I have seen, much less 150k hours.

We've typically seen the induction come in at less than LED btw, so it's been hard to justify the price difference. However, I was just informed by our induction company that even though the lamps last 100k plus hours, the ballast/generator is probably going to last 50k. Even our rep at Fulham was unaware of that, so there's a nugget for you. :thumbsup:
 
#17 ·
Induction/LED

This is my first time visiting Electrician Talk. Our company manufactures Induction and LED fixtures area and parking applications. We compare each every day for our customers and help them make informed decisions.

I am really interested in many of the well thought comments on this site.

We have stanardized on North American technologies for our lamps and ballasts in both Induction and LED. Most of the time we are using Sylvania as their longevity and real life application is strong for both Induction and LED. All of our products using the Sylvania Systems carry a 5 year parts and LABOR warranty (backed by Sylvania and our company). Product costs in our offering for Indcution and LED range from $ 300 - $ 1,200

As a manufacturer we frequently analyze different components (many of them Asian). We continue to see problems in quality and the support very rarely pans out. The temptation is there, because of price and claims, but be ware. There are many risks, including patent infringement (especially in the induction arena).

In summary - for area lighting, most of our customers start out thinking they want LED. Most end up using Induction. We provide a great LED product using Sylvania LED's and Drivers, but the cost is usually double. We can provide the required IESNA lighting levels for most applicactions under 25' using induction. Strong light levels, High CRI and several available color temps.

In the end we suggest LED for applications over 25' (ECO LED) and Induction (ECO Parking Lights) for applications under 25'. That will change over the next 5 years as LED's standardize (optically, they rock!!).

Thanks for letting me chime in.

Steve L.
 
#58 ·
#18 ·
I am always intrigued by some of the developments in new technologies and lighting efficiency.

We are designing the lighting for a new warehouse, and were considering using the linear T5 fluorescents, with motion sensors to limit energy consumption.

Are the induction lights suitable for this type of application? I figure that LEDs would not have a problem with several on/off operations throughout the day, and acknowledge that this may shorten the lamp life of the T5s somewhat.

The main problem here is initial cost, and since many companies are operating on a tight budget, convincing them to bear higher up front costs can be a real issue in today's economic climate. It was a struggle to even get them to agree to the motion sensor idea so you can ascertain what I'm dealing with here.
 
#19 ·
Reply to KB Sparky

There are some Warehouse applications where Induction Fixtures are starting to be utilized. We get this question quite frequently.

An induction lamp is a flourescent lamp (actually a T17) and its efficiency is very similiar to that of the T5's and T8's. The difference, as you may know is that there are no wear points associated with the lamp (no electrodes or filaments) with induction. That is why we see such a strong need for them in the parking industry, especially garages where the ramps actually move quite a bit through vibration. This has a tendancy to unseat the T8/T5's, not to mention that the fixtures take a heck of a beating.

In Warehouse applications, you really must have the correct owner to consider Induction or LED. Some factors that must play: It must be extremely difficult or expensive to get to the fixtures to change the lamps, possibly a safety hazard, and a customer that cares about the environmental impact of the lamp changes. Some of these are intangible benefits that are difficult to value.

Another consideration (our company is big on getting this across early in the decision making process). The new induction lamps and LED should provide a cleaner brighter white light, but when considering the amount of light required at the floor or on the product in a Warehouse you may struggle to get the required footcandles. Induction (using Sylvania or Phillips) technology tops out at 165 Watts. That is a big differnce from the typical 400 watt or 1000 watt lamps utilized in most Warehouse applications. That being said, there are many applications where the 150/165 watt induction will replace the 400 watt MH just fine.

In the end, it usally comes down to payback and at $ 350 - $ 600 per Induction fixture, that payback is usually to long, especially on a retrofit application where you are removing the existing fixture - But if you have the correct customer and application Induction rocks, I know for a fact that when applied properly the Sylvania Induction (Icetron) systems can go the distance of 100,000 hours with minimal depreciation and yes they can be turned on/off with motion sensors. Sylvania recommends 15 minute on/off time, but they can also be quickly cycled in emergencies.

Thanks for listening!!
 
#21 ·
A segment of our town retained the original incandescent streetlights for historic purposes, everywhere else in the township went modern in the 70's with HID streetlighting.

Between the failing ballasts, lamps, mercury disposal mandates, start capacitors, and now, apparently the new energy-saving electronic ballasts that are hypersensitive to vibration, power surges, electrical storms the town streetlighter tells me it costs in labor and material way more to maintain so-called energy-saving luminaires than incandescents "waste" in energy.

Makes sense.

A 250-watt floodlight in my backyard costs 20 bucks (with lamp) and 4 hours costs 12 cents per night.

1st year cost = 64 bucks
2nd year cost = 44 bucks total 108.00
3rd year cost = 44 bucks total 152.00
4th year cost = 44 bucks total 196.00
5th year cost = 44 bucks total 240.00
6th year cost = 44 bucks total 284.00
7th year cost = 44 bucks total 328.00

A decent, reliable 35 watt HPS wallpack costs 250 bucks and 4 hours costs 2 cents per night.

1st year cost = 258.00
2nd year cost = 7.30 total 265.00
3rd year cost = 7.30 total 272.00
4th year cost = 7.30 total 280.00
5th year cost = 7.30 total 287.20
6th year cost = 7.30 total 294.50
7th year cost = 7.30 total 301.80

It's not until year 7 I begin to see the "payback." Now who is going to assure me that a wallpack's lamp, capacitor, ballast, and starter board is not going to fail within 7 years, thereby wiping out any savings following the 7th year in use?
 
#22 ·
And that's not factoring in relamp cycle labor costs either. Of course, I never have an incandescent last 7 years either, but if you have to use a bucket truck twice vs. just once with the other fixture, whichever one it may be, you can absolutely show a business case for replacement. As we know, no one rolls a bucket truck or lift very cheap.

If you go induction or LED over a HID, CFL or incandescent fixture, I would be sure there is a factory warranty for at least five years that covers some labor cost in the event of failure. Any other option, and you have a scenario where the client or contractor assumes all of the risk. Most payback scenarios come into play for facilities that operate at least 5 days a week and 9+ hours per day. If you operate less than that, it can be difficult to show a decent ROI. 24-36 months is ideal. Anything beyond that it's uncommon to find someone ready to pull the trigger.

Although, we are doing a school district coming up, and due to low annual operating hours and an artificially low Kwh rate of $0.06 for schools in OK, the payback is over 7 years. There are some major improvements included and some new lights as well, but stil, it is not common for us to see 7+ years.

I only mention this since your short operating hours in a residential scenario may not always be a valid commercial scenario. Induction or LED in residential never makes financial sense from an ROI perspective unless you just HAVE to be green.
 
#23 ·
(Lighting Retro)And that's not factoring in relamp cycle labor costs either.

I was figuring both would last 7 years minimum, the HPS probably longer.

Of course, I never have an incandescent last 7 years either, but if you have to use a bucket truck twice vs. just once with the other fixture, whichever one it may be, you can absolutely show a business case for replacement. As we know, no one rolls a bucket truck or lift very cheap.

True, but in the case of streetlighting or in the case where a problem with any HID type fixture's problem is anything other than the actual lamp, an electrician is required. Instead of a handyman who "maintains" plus... most high-output incandescents are 130 v or could be, and after 4 hours a night are still good. Point is, with an incandescent, if it;s out it the lamp... if it's HID we need an electrician to determine why.


If you go induction or LED over a HID, CFL or incandescent fixture, I would be sure there is a factory warranty for at least five years that covers some labor cost in the event of failure. Any other option, and you have a scenario where the client or contractor assumes all of the risk. Most payback scenarios come into play for facilities that operate at least 5 days a week and 9+ hours per day. If you operate less than that, it can be difficult to show a decent ROI. 24-36 months is ideal. Anything beyond that it's uncommon to find someone ready to pull the trigger.

And with good reason, but I'll bet that's not clear in the sales pitch is it?

Although, we are doing a school district coming up, and due to low annual operating hours and an artificially low Kwh rate of $0.06 for schools in OK, the payback is over 7 years. There are some major improvements included and some new lights as well, but stil, it is not common for us to see 7+ years.

I only mention this since your short operating hours in a residential scenario may not always be a valid commercial scenario. Induction or LED in residential never makes financial sense from an ROI perspective unless you just HAVE to be green.[/quote]

Honestly, I think it makes sense never. What's sold is lower daily operating costs. What's diminished is the true cost of maintaining. Incandescent lamps are dirt cheap. So are the fixtures. Anyone can relamp / maintain them.
 
#24 ·
Thanks for the primer on induction lighting. It is something I had not heard of. We've been installing 320 to 400 watt MH lighting on canopies and light poles at gas stations for a long time and the cost of operating that much lighting has prompted the owners to want to do something to reduce their electric bill. We have just started installing LED lights. Actually only two sites that I know of in the Sacramento Calif. area. One I know is thrilled with the reduction of watts used and the nice white light the LED produces. Now I have to rethink whether to promote LED or induction.
David
 
#26 ·
We received our first retrofit fixture with induction from Fulham that previously had a 250W MH lamp. The induction lamp is 120W. Now with ballast, the MH fixture uses about 295 watts, and the induction is at 120W. Tremendous savings, and you save mega buck on relamp cycles. The lamp is projected to last 100k hours and the ballast about 50,000 hours. Even if you run 24/7 at about 7,000 hours a year, look how long that lasts!

MH is rated to last up to 24k hours max, but with many less expensive lamps that last less. They also lose a tremendous amount of lumens over the life of the lamp, whereas fluorescent T8, T5, and hybrid induction now maintain 95% of lumens over the life of the lamp. Huge difference in CRI (Color Rendering Index) as well, so overall a tremendous replacement product although more pricey up front.
 
#25 ·
Honestly, I think it makes sense never. What's sold is lower daily operating costs. What's diminished is the true cost of maintaining. Incandescent lamps are dirt cheap. So are the fixtures. Anyone can relamp / maintain them.
Actually, it almost always makes sense in a commercial environment. That's why they are banning incandescent in entire countries and states. 90% of the energy in those lamps goes to heat, not light.

Compare a 2 Lamp 2x4 troffer with (2) T8 lamps and electronic ballast at about 60 Watts to a 60 Watt incandescent light bulb. There is no comparison in energy consumption and lumens per watt.

Unfortunately, although they have been reliable for 100+ years, there is just a better product now. They make self ballasted lamps for several applications like CFLs and induction lamps, so the concern you bring up isn't a huge deal in residential.

For commercial it doesn't apply since incandescent doesn't put out the required light levels. You can't have dealership parking lot lights running incandescent lamps. You won't see anything. [/end rant]:thumbsup:
 
#28 ·
(Lighting Retro)And that's not factoring in relamp cycle labor costs either. Of course, I never have an incandescent last 7 years either, but if you have to use a bucket truck twice vs. just once with the other fixture, whichever one it may be, you can absolutely show a business case for replacement. As we know, no one rolls a bucket truck or lift very cheap.

I agree, but the town streetlight maintainer is rolling every day no matter. No light at an incandescent - relamp. No light at a HPS - 1/2 hour minimum to diagnose and repair.

If you go induction or LED over a HID, CFL or incandescent fixture, I would be sure there is a factory warranty for at least five years that covers some labor cost in the event of failure. Any other option, and you have a scenario where the client or contractor assumes all of the risk. Most payback scenarios come into play for facilities that operate at least 5 days a week and 9+ hours per day. If you operate less than that, it can be difficult to show a decent ROI. 24-36 months is ideal. Anything beyond that it's uncommon to find someone ready to pull the trigger.

Although, we are doing a school district coming up, and due to low annual operating hours and an artificially low Kwh rate of $0.06 for schools in OK, the payback is over 7 years. There are some major improvements included and some new lights as well, but stil, it is not common for us to see 7+ years.

I only mention this since your short operating hours in a residential scenario may not always be a valid commercial scenario. Induction or LED in residential never makes financial sense from an ROI perspective unless you just HAVE to be green.
 
#29 ·
(Lighting Retro)Actually, it almost always makes sense in a commercial environment. That's why they are banning incandescent in entire countries and states. 90% of the energy in those lamps goes to heat, not light.

But there's more to it than just Kwh consumed, including laws being passed in exchange for donations to the correct political charity.

So, it's "greener" to use HID in some store... based solely on annual Kwh consumed, but it doesn't really consider the cost to manufacture, the energy needed to manufacture, the enviromental destruction that occurs "over there, somewhere other than here" nor the unseen subsidies from our tax dollars to produce and provide rebates. Not to mention future disposal costs or enviromental destruction from mercury-laden waste lamps or "disposable" printed-circuit electronic ballasts.

Compare a 2 Lamp 2x4 troffer with (2) T8 lamps and electronic ballast at about 60 Watts to a 60 Watt incandescent light bulb. There is no comparison in energy consumption and lumens per watt.

Agreed. After 50 years I'd have 16 burned out lamps of glass and tungsten. What will I havce after 50 years of troffers? Where does/will all that nasty mercury go?

Unfortunately, although they have been reliable for 100+ years, there is just a better product now. They make self ballasted lamps for several applications like CFLs and induction lamps, so the concern you bring up isn't a huge deal in residential.

You're not making a case here - now the CFLs get tossed along with their electronic ballasts and plastic and lead and solder and... geez...

What would you rather buried in your backyard?

For commercial it doesn't apply since incandescent doesn't put out the required light levels. You can't have dealership parking lot lights running incandescent lamps. You won't see anything. [/end rant]:thumbsup:

Ever been to Broadway?

How about 5th Ave in Manhattan? The Museum of Natural History is floodlit from across 5th Ave, approx 200' away with weatherproof incandescent theatrical spotlights mounted atop streetlight poles and it looks fine. They tried MH, MV HPS and the results were hedious.

I've noticed some "greenies" with CFLs in their crystal chandilers. I'm sure you can imagine how horrible it looks.
 
#30 ·
If you are more concerned with the environment, you will definitely be a fan of LED. However, to keep using incandescent lamps means using more coal to fire power plants. I suppose the argument can go both ways, but apparently the governing bodies have worked out that comparison and incenting new technology over building more power plants.

But hey, we just put in the stuff and dispose of what needs to be disposed of properly.... There is a whole industry that revolves around energy efficient fixtures, mercury and non mercury types, and it makes sense to be involved. I personally don't care for the look for most CFL's, but I do like the new T8's over T12's. I like the high bays over the HID's. Induction is growing on me, and I'm sure LED will in time as well. If you limit yourself to only incandescent, I think you may end up doing yourself and your client a disservice.

A customer we will do work for in LA is going to be able to retrofit their ENTIRE high rise building with new lamps and ballasts and have it paid for with the local incentive program. When you add up the cost of maintenance that would likely be required over a period of a couple of years vs. all new lamps and ballasts and lower energy consumption, it's a win win for all parties. And of course all lamps and ballasts are recycled, so there isn't a measurable environmental impact.
 
#31 ·
(Lighting Retro)If you are more concerned with the environment, you will definitely be a fan of LED. However, to keep using incandescent lamps means using more coal to fire power plants. I suppose the argument can go both ways, but apparently the governing bodies have worked out that comparison and incenting new technology over building more power plants.

And I disagree with the governing bodies - as lighting accounts for at MOST 10% of a residence's electrical consumption and even less for commercial when you factor in motors, and A/C, and elevators, not to mention electrically driven industrial machines or computers, servers, etc. Seems the focus is on lighting lighting lighting as if that switch on the wall was more wasteful than the 30 ton condensor on the roof...


But hey, we just put in the stuff and dispose of what needs to be disposed of properly.... There is a whole industry that revolves around energy efficient fixtures, mercury and non mercury types, and it makes sense to be involved. I personally don't care for the look for most CFL's, but I do like the new T8's over T12's. I like the high bays over the HID's. Induction is growing on me, and I'm sure LED will in time as well. If you limit yourself to only incandescent, I think you may end up doing yourself and your client a disservice.

A customer we will do work for in LA is going to be able to retrofit their ENTIRE high rise building with new lamps and ballasts and have it paid for with the local incentive program. When you add up the cost of maintenance that would likely be required over a period of a couple of years vs. all new lamps and ballasts and lower energy consumption, it's a win win for all parties. And of course all lamps and ballasts are recycled, so there isn't a measurable environmental impact.

I doubt there'll be any winnings for those who foot the incentive bills.
 
#32 ·
Actually there are dramatic winnings. For example where I am located at in TX: they were going to build several new power plants to supply power to a growing population. However, if all use of energy become more efficient by "x" %, there would be no need to have additional power plants for years.

You are correct about residential in lighting. Your average number is correct, and it is of minimal benefit to home owners to look at other options. However, I deal in the commercial and industrial sector, and it is a different story. There are buildings we go into that are primarily warehouse with HID lighting, and their bill is 75%+ lighting related. Cutting that in half makes a substantial difference, and that is why there are utility incentives in TX that incent companies to move to energy efficient options. Locally they can get up to $175 per Kw demand reduced and also $0.06 per Kwh saved. It adds up. I don't do residential, but I agree in that application it is of minor benefit. ESPECIALLY since home owners do not dispose of CFL's properly by and large.
 
#33 ·
Hey! guys, I have a good reason for home owners to go LED, Christmas. Have you heard of the $3000 to $5000 electric bills for some of these guys who go crazy doing Christmas Lights. No only will LED Christmas lights save a lot on their electric bill, you can plug end to end about 25 strings of lights instead of 3. Also my personal experience is, the lights I have been buying from Walmart or Home Depot only last about 2 years. I'm told that these LED will last at least 5 years. That will pay for the extra cost of buying LED.
David
PS, you guys who install Christmas Lights, your going to make the job a lot easier and I like the colors better too.
 
#34 ·
Hey all I know is I went overboard during an earth day sale at big orange 2 years ago and swapped out 12 R30's, 11 R20's, and about 20 or so other bulbs in my house for CFL's and I still have yet yo see a significant difference in my electric bill. Oh, and I've replaced at least 5 of them already....so much fore 7 year bulbs, PT Barnum once said......
 
#35 ·
The funny thing about fluorescent technology is that it is really designed to be used for longer on/off cycles than we use at home. 12+ hours per cycle is ideal. Well we all know that doesn't happen at home. We flick them on and off all the time, and they simply do not last.

And as I think someone either mentioned in this thread or another, lighting only represents about 10% of a residential bill. You will rarely see a noticeable difference by replacing lamps. AC and Heating represent the biggest national avg of about 50%. Then you have appliances, TV's, etc.

I think the 7 year warranty, 5 yr warranty, or even 3 year warranty is the biggest joke in the business on CFL's. I usually leave a partial case behind if we ever put them in, as I don't expect them to last in most applications like the linear lamps do.
 
#36 · (Edited)
I usually leave a partial case behind if we ever put them in, as I don't expect them to last in most applications like the linear lamps do.
I have every single bulbs packaging, don't think for a second that I paid for replacing any of the ones that went bad...they go out, I put it in the package and my next trip to big orange it comes with me. :thumbsup:

Actually I am thinking of shipping all the R30's back to Philips just because I don't like how they dim.....fully bright the color shade is fine, it goes out the window once you dim it down...it looks like a scary scene in a movie...like the lighting they would use for a haunted mental hospital or something.
 
#38 ·
I am interested in finding out more on the induction lights that you are using. Do you have any before and after pictures yet?

I have been looking to start selling some energy efficient exterior lighting like induction or LED. I hear that LED is much more expensive than induction and right now not as efficient.
 
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