[Electrician guy 225]

Hey guys, Im installing a 50 amp 9854 manual generac transfer switch. When i was installing it i realized it was on a switched nuetral, on the transfer switch. The customers generator is a 9.4kw portable gen. says the neutral is bonded to the frame. My question is do i need to ground the portable generator ? and if i do whats a suitable ground?

 

[SWDweller]

Are you an electrician?
Have you read the manual for the portable yet?
You do know what happens when you have 2 grounds?

How do you ground a electrical service? and all of the metallic piping?

 

[Electrician guy 225]

Do you know the answer or are you just going to keep talking ****?

 

[Slenderman]

If the neutral is switched then you have yourself a separately derived system which should have its own grounding. If the neutral is bonded to the frame on the portable Gen that is the system bonding jumper. You'll need to use any one of the grounding electrode choices from the book. Couple ground rods would work and size the GEC to the table I think it's around 250.66

Sorry just saw this was Canada can't help you with the code there.

 

[Electrician guy 225]

If the neutral is switched then you have yourself a separately derived system which should have its own grounding. If the neutral is bonded to the frame on the portable Gen that is the system bonding jumper. You'll need to use any one of the grounding electrode choices from the book. Couple ground rods would work and size the GEC to the table I think it's around 250.66

Sorry just saw this was Canada can't help you with the code there.

thats what i was thinking, i know CEC is pretty similar to NEC

 

[eddy current]

Hey guys, Im installing a 50 amp 9854 manual generac transfer switch. When i was installing it i realized it was on a switched nuetral, on the transfer switch. The customers generator is a 9.4kw portable gen. says the neutral is bonded to the frame. My question is do i need to ground the portable generator ? and if i do whats a suitable ground?

Do you know the answer or are you just going to keep talking ****?

Your questions don’t sound like the type of thing an electrician wouldn’t know. What kind of electrical work do you do?

 

[emtnut]

Do you know the answer or are you just going to keep talking ****?

Hi Electrician Guy !

First, he only responded once, so I don't know why you said 'keep talking' ----

Second, take a minute and fill out your profile, it's required here.

Third ... are you an Electrician ?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Guys the poster has "electrician guy" as his forum name. Go with that... we do not second-guess people and there are many electricians that are confused with generators so be nice... Thanks

 

[emtnut]

OK electrician guy .... here ... https://esasafe.com/assets/files/esasafe/pdf/Electrical_Safety_Products/Bulletins/10-10-9.pdf

Say thanks to Dennis

 

[kb1jb1]

If it is a separately derived system as Slender said,, then he needs a grounding electrode system and that needs to go back to the building's grounding electrodes. We had another thread about this subject several months ago.

 

[eddy current]

Guys the poster has "electrician guy" as his forum name. Go with that... we do not second-guess people and there are many electricians that are confused with generators so be nice... Thanks

2 of the 3 discussions started by the OP have been questions that most electricians know and both times he was questioned about if he is an actual electrician.

That’s why I asked.

 

[kb1jb1]

OK electrician guy .... here ... https://esasafe.com/assets/files/esasafe/pdf/Electrical_Safety_Products/Bulletins/10-10-9.pdf

Say thanks to Dennis

I wish NY would come up with answers to questions or issues in writing like what you posted. Here it takes years of hear-say and opinions so we do not know what to do at times. We have multiple electrical inspection agencies and each might have their own take on the electrical code and you know what that could lead to. There is no ultimate authority.

My reading comprehension is slipping so can someone explain what the 10-210d is saying? I am trying to relate to our NEC and our Utility policy. I take it " Authority System " is the utility. Are they talking about generator neutral conductors or all neutral conductors in general?

 

[joe-nwt]

My reading comprehension is slipping so can someone explain what the 10-210d is saying? I am trying to relate to our NEC and our Utility policy. I take it " Authority System " is the utility. Are they talking about generator neutral conductors or all neutral conductors in general?

Supply authority is the utility. d) is saying the grounded conductor can't connect to ground anywhere other than a) to c).

It's a long winded way of saying a non-isolated neutral in a meter base may not be tested as a bonding jumper and must not be used as such.

Another example of why our code book is 4 times the size is was 25 years ago.

 

[kb1jb1]

Supply authority is the utility. d) is saying the grounded conductor can't connect to ground anywhere other than a) to c).

It's a long winded way of saying a non-isolated neutral in a meter base may not be tested as a bonding jumper and must not be used as such.

Another example of why our code book is 4 times the size is was 25 years ago.

Here in NY where I live our meter pans have the neutral directly connected or bolted to the metal pan. What is interesting is we can have a 600 amp main service switch where all grounding and bonding takes place at that point. This switch can feed multiple meters and disconnects. The meters have bonded neutrals so now we have parallel neutral paths between the meters and the 600 amp switch.

 

[joe-nwt]

The meters have bonded neutrals so now we have parallel neutral paths between the meters and the 600 amp switch.

So?

I've asked before, so what if there is a parallel neutral path between a meter base and a main disconnect?

What ifs aside, the requirement for an isolated neutral at a meter base has just become a thing the last couple of code cycles. So new in fact, they don't want to just come out and say all meter base shall have isolated neutrals just in case they overlooked something. So the utilities are making the call in Canada as far as I can tell. Prior to that, a solid connection at the meter base and a bond in the disconnect were the norm.

What were all the incidents and occurrences that happened back then? I've asked 3 different AHJs from 3 provinces and they all mumbled something about metal siding on a barn glowing red. Sounds like there was a real epidemic of issues with the parallel path setup.

 

[emtnut]

I wish NY would come up with answers to questions or issues in writing like what you posted. Here it takes years of hear-say and opinions so we do not know what to do at times. We have multiple electrical inspection agencies and each might have their own take on the electrical code and you know what that could lead to. There is no ultimate authority.

My reading comprehension is slipping so can someone explain what the 10-210d is saying? I am trying to relate to our NEC and our Utility policy. I take it " Authority System " is the utility. Are they talking about generator neutral conductors or all neutral conductors in general?

Joe answered your question, but here is the code on it to see where a) and c) are.

 

[eddy current]

So?

I've asked before, so what if there is a parallel neutral path between a meter base and a main disconnect?

What ifs aside, the requirement for an isolated neutral at a meter base has just become a thing the last couple of code cycles. So new in fact, they don't want to just come out and say all meter base shall have isolated neutrals just in case they overlooked something. So the utilities are making the call in Canada as far as I can tell. Prior to that, a solid connection at the meter base and a bond in the disconnect were the norm.

What were all the incidents and occurrences that happened back then? I've asked 3 different AHJs from 3 provinces and they all mumbled something about metal siding on a barn glowing red. Sounds like there was a real epidemic of issues with the parallel path setup.

Isolated neutrals in meter bases is not new, it’s just new for residential services. Old code allowed the meter base in a residential service to be bonded using the line side of the neutral. They removed that requirement when they re-wrote section 10 in 2012 or 2015, I can’t remember. (ETA Ontario still wants the line side of the neutral to bond the base and the grounding to be done in the panel)

On a commercial 250 volt service where the main disconnect is before the meter, the meter base had to have its neutral isolated. That has always been a requirement and isolated neutral lugs for meter bases were always available. I Was doing this decades ago on commercial services.

 

[emtnut]

So?

I've asked before, so what if there is a parallel neutral path between a meter base and a main disconnect?

What ifs aside, the requirement for an isolated neutral at a meter base has just become a thing the last couple of code cycles. So new in fact, they don't want to just come out and say all meter base shall have isolated neutrals just in case they overlooked something. So the utilities are making the call in Canada as far as I can tell. Prior to that, a solid connection at the meter base and a bond in the disconnect were the norm.

What were all the incidents and occurrences that happened back then? I've asked 3 different AHJs from 3 provinces and they all mumbled something about metal siding on a barn glowing red. Sounds like there was a real epidemic of issues with the parallel path setup.

Well Joe ... it's 'objectionable' !

 

[joe-nwt]

Old code allowed the meter base in a residential service to be bonded using the line side of the neutral. They removed that requirement when they re-wrote section 10 in 2012 or 2015,

2012 still had the connection at "supply side the service disconnecting means either in the service box or other service equipment". Also specified no other connection between the two on the load side of the service disconnect. I see no differentiating between residential and commercial. If you have some info on that, please share.

2015 was the same.

2018 was were it was specified one connection and none period on either the line or load side of the disconnection means. Although it still does not specify not to use the meter base. Nope, can't just come out and say that. You need to find out the specifics in Appendix B.

Is it odd that there is a page of Appendix B dedicated to every three pages of the code?

 

[eddy current]

2012 still had the connection at "supply side the service disconnecting means either in the service box or other service equipment". Also specified no other connection between the two on the load side of the service disconnect. I see no differentiating between residential and commercial. If you have some info on that, please share.

2015 was the same.

2018 was were it was specified one connection and none period on either the line or load side of the disconnection means. Although it still does not specify not to use the meter base. Nope, can't just come out and say that. You need to find out the specifics in Appendix B.

Is it odd that there is a page of Appendix B dedicated to every three pages of the code?

It’s not a specific rule for commercial, but have you ever done a commercial 240 volt service under 400 amps? If so, Where was the meter? Before or after the main? If it was after then the neutral had to be isolated from the base.

Every one I have done the disconnect had to be first, before the meter. Once you ground the neutral which is done in the main disconnect, you must keep the neutral and ground separate, including in a meter base.

The old code [10-624(iv) in the 2012 book] allowed us to bond the meter base with the supply side of the neutral which was only ever done in residential for a single unit with a single meter.

I have also used isolated neutrals in meter bases for large residential buildings with more than 6 meters. Main disconnect feeding a splitter with multiple disconnects and meters, or a main disconnect feeding a large meter cabinet with many meters for separate units. When you install something like that, the neutral MUST be separate from the base which is done using isolated neutral blocks.

The main point I’m making here is that isolating the neutral in a meter base is not new and must be done in certain situations and has been that way for a long time. Not every service has the meter fist before the main disconnect.