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Working for some folks who are completely stripping and remodeling a large bathroom. In addition to the usual sconces, recessed lights, shower lights, etc., etc., they are installing a jacuzzi (whirlpool) type tub with two circuits needed - the motor circuit and the heat circuit. No prob there because the original thoughful electricians who wired the house left four unused 15 and 20 amp circuits in the box deadheaded in the attic. But on reading the requirments it recommends adding a #8 solid copper bonding wire run from the tub all the way to the service panel. Thats gonna be a long run and a real pain to fish down an exterior wall to the panel. Any of you guys installed this type of tub with that type of ground ? Any suggestions are appreciated.
 

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Working for some folks who are completely stripping and remodeling a large bathroom. In addition to the usual sconces, recessed lights, shower lights, etc., etc., they are installing a jacuzzi (whirlpool) type tub with two circuits needed - the motor circuit and the heat circuit. No prob there because the original thoughful electricians who wired the house left four unused 15 and 20 amp circuits in the box deadheaded in the attic. But on reading the requirments it recommends adding a #8 solid copper bonding wire run from the tub all the way to the service panel. Thats gonna be a long run and a real pain to fish down an exterior wall to the panel. Any of you guys installed this type of tub with that type of ground ? Any suggestions are appreciated.

Is the house run with copper water piping? If so groung the cold water side with a #8 solid, if not then your ok with nothing just make sure you GFCI protect the 2 circuits and they should both be 20 amp circuits but whatever.
 

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Installed one not to long ago, instructions did not mention anything about running the #8 all the way back to the panel. They just read to connect the heat and motor together and ground it to the jbox for the two 15A GFCI protected circuits. All piping is PVC or I would have grounded to the plumbing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
It has PVC plumbing and both circuits will be GFCI protected. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the directions, could be only running the #8 to the first J box, but then it would only be connected to the bare #12. Not sure, but I will reread the instruction book tommorrow.
 

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The '08 NEC has made it clear that there is no requirement to run the #8 to the panel. IF you have metallic water piping, then you bond the motor and heater to the pipes. It is intended to create an equipotential plane.

The manufacturers do not understand the NEC.
 

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This is one time where I say screw the instructions. As John said, there is NO requirement to run the #8 BOND, back to any panel or ground source.
The #8 is a BOND , NOT a ground.
Depending on your code cycle, read "680.74 Bonding" very closely.
 

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Bonding

This question comes up ever now and then The State of Washington requires #8 to the panel for a bond. The State of Idaho and my AHJ uses the grounding conductor from the power circuit that supplies the tub. Call your local inspector and ask.;)
 

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This question comes up ever now and then The State of Washington requires #8 to the panel for a bond.
Do they actually give a reason that makes sense? :rolleyes:
Do they give any reason at all?

Actually, Baltimore city made me do this once, about 12 years ago. Knowing then, what I know now, I would have questioned it.
 

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This question comes up ever now and then The State of Washington requires #8 to the panel for a bond.
Seriously?? That's some widespread misinformation.
The #8 was NEVER intended to be a ground. It is simply a bond.

The State of Idaho and my AHJ uses the grounding conductor from the power circuit that supplies the tub.
Once again, this is correct as it is the ground. At the same time, the circuit ground is NOT intended to bond the water piping.
 

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I just did one in which the manufacturer required #6 for all four wires back to the panel -- including the bonding wire. It was the requirement for the #6 bonding wire that drove the use of separate (THWN) conductors.
 

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I just did one in which the manufacturer required #6 for all four wires back to the panel -- including the bonding wire.
For a bathtub?????
 

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I think that has alot to do with manufacturers covering their asses. Nobody wants to get sued these days and there's alot of it going on. They obviously don't know what they're talking about. The best thing to do would be to check with your local codes, it will probably be something like:

#6 or #8 solid for a jumper from motor to cold water. Probably #8.
The ground from the feed is more then likely suffecient.
That's how it is here in Chicago anyways.
 

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I tend to agree that it is the manufacturer's trying to reduce liability, but then again, I don't have any technical issues with it. I do have problems with using the water pipes for bonding. Heck, it's only money. right?
 

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I do have problems with using the water pipes for bonding. Heck, it's only money. right?
Care to explain this?
 

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The tub in question was a hot tub.

I have no issues with using the water pipe for the system ground, but I do have issues with using the building piping for bonding. I see new construction with mixed piping, PVC, copper and the black stuff -- I can't recall its trade name. In my area where water pipe bonding has become practically non-existent, I doubt plumbers or DIY types would consider the pipe they are about to replace might be serving as a bonding conductor.

Cooperation is my middle name.

Not really.
 

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The tub in question was a hot tub.

I have no issues with using the water pipe for the system ground, but I do have issues with using the building piping for bonding. I see new construction with mixed piping, PVC, copper and the black stuff -- I can't recall its trade name. In my area where water pipe bonding has become practically non-existent, I doubt plumbers or DIY types would consider the pipe they are about to replace might be serving as a bonding conductor.

Cooperation is my middle name.

Not really.
Bonding to motor to the metal water pipes.

It is intended to create an equipotential plane.

It is NOT a substitute for an EGC.

Check out 680.74 in the '08 NEC

edit to add: See also 680.26, especially (B)
 

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That is correct, but it wasn't the drift of the discussion as I understood it. Bringing an EGC larger than #10 all the way back to the service seemed to be the issue.

The hot tub wasn't connected to any house plumbing.
 
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