Electrician Talk banner
1 - 20 of 56 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I realize that a receptacle on a peninsula less than 12" below the countertop but under an overhang greater than 6" will not count as the required peninsula receptacle, but can it still be there? I have read this over and over in the 2011 NEC and I do not see that I can't put one there. I only see that it won't meet the peninsula receptacle requirement.

To make it even more grey, can it be on one of the small branch appliance circuits?

I want two 120V/USB receptacles 3" below the 42" high peninsula countertop bar (13"overhang) on the living room side to mainly facilitate cell phone/tablet charging. I'd like to add these into one of the two kitchen small appliance branch circuits.

Thanks,

Don
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,345 Posts
I agree no real issue.........but 3" below a 13" overhang.....why not a little lower or are you trying to hide them?.....sounds inconvenient, puzzeled.
 

·
Administrator
Retired EC
Joined
·
23,721 Posts
You can put as many as you want there. Yes it can be from the SABC.
IMO it cannot be on the small appliance branch circuit if the receptacles are facing the living room. It will not qualify for the small appliance branch circuit so something has to be done for that but the fact that the overhang is more than 12" makes the receptacles not a small appliance branch circuit but rather a living room circuit
 

·
Electrical Simpleton
Joined
·
3,350 Posts
I tend to agree with Dennis on this one.

Pete
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,201 Posts
IMO it cannot be on the small appliance branch circuit if the receptacles are facing the living room. It will not qualify for the small appliance branch circuit so something has to be done for that but the fact that the overhang is more than 12" makes the receptacles not a small appliance branch circuit but rather a living room circuit
We are going on the assumption that he already has the required peninsula receptacle. These are in addition to that one.

It has an overhang so we can assume that bar stools are going there. Regardless of being on the living room side, how is that not still part of the kitchen/breakfast bar/peninsula? You can have as many wall outlets as you want on the SABC in the kitchen nook, eat in kitchen, or dining room. The idea that them facing the living room makes them part of the living room simply because they are slightly lower than the peninsula required height/location is absurd.

That's stretching it and only a real prick of an inspector would call someone out on something like that as it isn't explicitly prohibited. In fact, it isn't prohibited at all.

The breakfast bar/peninsula is part of the allowable areas for for SABC's to be shared. Simply not counting as the required SABC receptacle on the peninsula does not automatically exclude it from being on the SABC. See above for examples and obvious proof of that.

Let's go a step farther with the particular placement of these specific receptacles, which are just beneath the kitchen countertop. Aside from them being USB receptacles, common sense might dictate that people might just plug a toaster in to that receptacle while the kids are getting ready for school. While it is not as accessible as the required location, it sure would be conveinent for a small appliance.

I'd like to hear the logic that has brought you to your conclusion, as I see Donnie's question as a fair one to be asked. Perhaps it is something in the 2014 NEC that I am unaware of, but as you presented your case under previous code cycles, it is a complete fallacy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,201 Posts
I read my post as coming across as rude and that was not my intention, so my apologies for that. I'm just trying to state my side and opinion on the matter with relevant information while seeking clarification on the contrary.

And yes, I have actually done very similar before and had zero second thoughts about doing so.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I agree no real issue.........but 3" below a 13" overhang.....why not a little lower or are you trying to hide them?.....sounds inconvenient, puzzeled.
These receptacles are almost exclusively for charging cell phones and maybe tablets. I want them as high as possible to avoid contact with the knees. I have 3 receptacles on the kitchen side that meet the code requirement although I am only required to have 2 receptacles on peninsula to cover the two separated counter spaces.
 

Attachments

·
Electrical Simpleton
Joined
·
3,350 Posts
I read my post as coming across as rude and that was not my intention, so my apologies for that. I'm just trying to state my side and opinion on the matter with relevant information while seeking clarification on the contrary.

And yes, I have actually done very similar before and had zero second thoughts about doing so.
Ok, you got me... I'm a prick.

If the countertop, on the peninsula, extends more than 6" beyond it's supporting base NO receptacle under said overhang can be counted as serving the countertop.

If said receptacle is not located in the kitchen (and I mean kitchen by definition in article 100) and it is also not located in one of the other areas that the 2 or more small appliance branch circuits are permitted to supply (meaning the living room) how is it OK by code?

If you feed a receptacle in the living room from a SABC you are obviously not creating a hazard to life or property you are simply creating a code violation.

Pete
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,201 Posts
Ok, you got me... I'm a prick.

If the countertop, on the peninsula, extends more than 6" beyond it's supporting base NO receptacle under said overhang can be counted as serving the countertop.

If said receptacle is not located in the kitchen (and I mean kitchen by definition in article 100) and it is also not located in one of the other areas that the 2 or more small appliance branch circuits are permitted to supply (meaning the living room) how is it OK by code?

If you feed a receptacle in the living room from a SABC you are obviously not creating a hazard to life or property you are simply creating a code violation.

Pete
It is on the peninsula, with seats. Seats at a kitchen countertop. Where people eat. You know, serving as part of the kitchen.

Would you also fail an eat in kitchen with a table simply because you don't like it? How about a nook with little table adjacent to the kitchen? And the dining room? Obviously you wouldn't. Well....I take that back.

And I didn't even read your first response, my reply was to Dennis.
 

·
Electrical Simpleton
Joined
·
3,350 Posts
It is on the peninsula, with seats. Seats at a kitchen countertop. Where people eat. You know, serving as part of the kitchen.
I personally wouldn't care if the receptacles were located at a table in the garage that someone is eating a sandwich at.

The point is... the receptacle is either located to serve a countertop in a kitchen (which in the OP it isn't) or it's located in wall space in a kitchen (which in the OP it isn't) or it's in an area permitted to be served by the one or more SABC's (which in the OP it isn't).

Would you also fail an eat in kitchen with a table simply because you don't like it?
No... half the kitchens I inspect I don't like... doesn't mean I fail them. The only reason I point out the contractors failure is if there is a legitimite code infraction.

And I didn't even read your first response, my reply was to Dennis. But if you fit the description, there you go.
My first response was that I agree with Dennis. And, to quench your curiosity, typically I'm not a prick. There you go.

Pete
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,201 Posts
I personally wouldn't care if the receptacles were located at a table in the garage that someone is eating a sandwich at.

The point is... the receptacle is either located to serve a countertop in a kitchen (which in the OP it isn't) or it's located in wall space in a kitchen (which in the OP it isn't) or it's in an area permitted to be served by the one or more SABC's (which in the OP it isn't).



No... half the kitchens I inspect I don't like... doesn't mean I fail them. The only reason I point out the contractors failure is if there is a legitimite code infraction.



My first response was that I agree with Dennis. And, to quench your curiosity, typically I'm not a prick. There you go.

Pete
Your theory is that the receptacle is facing the living room, and not part of the one required peninsula receptacle on the SABC, therefor making it a part of the living room.

However, you shorten the countertop to 6", move the outlet up 3", and now all of the sudden facing the living room is irrelevant. Do you fail to see the fallacy?

It is on the peninsula. Serving as part of the eat in kitchen.
 

·
Electrical Simpleton
Joined
·
3,350 Posts
Your theory is that the receptacle is facing the living room, and not part of the one required peninsula receptacle on the SABC, therefor making it a part of the living room.

However, you shorten the countertop to 6", move the outlet up 3", and now all of the sudden facing the living room is irrelevant. Do you fail to see the fallacy?

It is on the peninsula. Serving as part of the eat in kitchen.
If you change the dynamics of the question you will assuredly change the answer.

If the receptacle could be considered to be serving the countertop and was intended to, I could buy that all day long.

That wasn't the case in the OP and that's why I said I agreed with Dennis.

Pete
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I personally wouldn't care if the receptacles were located at a table in the garage that someone is eating a sandwich at.

The point is... the receptacle is either located to serve a countertop in a kitchen (which in the OP it isn't) or it's located in wall space in a kitchen (which in the OP it isn't) or it's in an area permitted to be served by the one or more SABC's (which in the OP it isn't).



No... half the kitchens I inspect I don't like... doesn't mean I fail them. The only reason I point out the contractors failure is if there is a legitimite code infraction.



My first response was that I agree with Dennis. And, to quench your curiosity, typically I'm not a prick. There you go.

Pete
It actually will serve the countertop. Think cell phone charging on countertop. I guess the overhang is just too big to count as a required receptacle but the majority opinion seems to be that it not counting as a required peninsula receptacle does not mean that it is not allowed to be there.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,201 Posts
Regardless, a SABC does not have to serve the countertop anyway.

Put a small desk in the kitchen, put a couple USB receptacles under the desk at standard wall recep height, and yep, they can be on the SABC. Or have a couple receps along the exterior open perimeter wall. Good to go. Or the entire dining room. But apparently some inspectors are of the opinion that because they face a living room, even though they are located on a peninsula with bar stools, they can't be on the SABC. Somehow that side of the peninsula is no longer part of the kitchen (again, because it faces the living room, forgetting that it is a bar/eat in kitchen).

It's odd reasoning for sure. Hopefully your inspector listens to a rational argument if he initially fails this or states that you simply can't share these receptacles with the SABC.
 

·
Electrical Simpleton
Joined
·
3,350 Posts
It actually will serve the countertop. Think cell phone charging on countertop. I guess the overhang is just too big to count as a required receptacle but the majority opinion seems to be that it not counting as a required peninsula receptacle does not mean that it is not allowed to be there.
I, nor Dennis, ever said it was not permitted to "be there". But, according to the NEC, and not my personal opinion, it could not be counted as serving the countertop and the fact that it is in the living room area it cannot be fed by a SABC.

Pete
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dennis Alwon

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,201 Posts
It is in and on the peninsula/island. Where people are eating. As in an eat in kitchen. It is not serving the living room.

It is not on some random wall inside the living room. According to the NEC, a peninsula or island does not need any receptacles to feed the living room.

Actually serving the countertop per NEC is a horrible argument being that you can have standard wall height receptacles on the SABC.

It is your opinion that it is in the living room. It is fact that it is located on the island/peninsula as part of the kitchen.
 

·
Electrical Simpleton
Joined
·
3,350 Posts
Regardless, a SABC does not have to serve the countertop anyway.
If the countertop is in the living room then we agree. If, however, the countertop is in a kitchen we don't.



Put a small desk in the kitchen, put a couple USB receptacles under the desk at standard wall recep height, and yep, they can be on the SABC.
Yep, they can.. ONLY because they are in the kitchen.


Or have a couple receps along the exterior open perimeter wall. Good to go. Or the entire dining room.
Again, we agree.

But apparently some inspectors are of the opinion that because they face a living room, even though they are located on a peninsula with bar stools, they can't be on the SABC.
The only inspectors that I know which would think like this are ones who actually read and understand the code as written.

Somehow that side of the peninsula is no longer part of the kitchen (again, because it faces the living room, forgetting that it is a bar/eat in kitchen).
The "somehow" is found right in the NEC... seriously I'm not making this stuff up!

It's odd reasoning for sure.
I find it odd that you have such heartburn with a completely black and white code section.

Hopefully your inspector listens to a rational argument if he initially fails this or states that you simply can't share these receptacles with the SABC.
Why would you expect the inspector to listen to what you would call "a rational argument" when you haven't grasped what the NEC requirements are? Just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean they don't exist. What I have pointed out are not my opinions. They are adopted law, AFAIK, in your jurisdiction.

Pete
 
1 - 20 of 56 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top