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Bababoee
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9,187 Posts
I dont understand why so many guys dont like this....? hard wire it and installing a breaker lock is by far the least expensive way to go. The code is telling you its ok not to install an outlet and cord.....! Why bother going through the trouble of puting in a switch, or outlet and cord when you can get away with a 2 dollar breaker lock......LOL you guys kill me......
 

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Jesus Scott
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I dont understand why so many guys dont like this....? hard wire it and installing a breaker lock is by far the least expensive way to go. The code is telling you its ok not to install an outlet and cord.....! Why bother going through the trouble of puting in a switch, or outlet and cord when you can get away with a 2 dollar breaker lock......LOL you guys kill me......
What's the big deal. Just because you think one way is "better" does not mean it is. I happen to think, make that know, my way works better for me. Whoopdeedo.
 

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I prefer cord and receptacle myself. I question whether NM is designed to be used as a flexible pigtail to a removable appliance. I personally find it just as easy to rough in a receptacle and put a cord on the dishwasher vs hardwiring it. If you hard wire it then you have to have a disconnecting means or lock out.
 

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Bababoee
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9,187 Posts
What's the big deal. Just because you think one way is "better" does not mean it is. I happen to think, make that know, my way works better for me. Whoopdeedo.
I dont think one way is better than the other, I just do what the "CODE" says you have to do..An inspector brought it to my attention about a year ago so now I do it the correct way. Just cause your the "Bad boy/rouge" electrician doesnt mean we all have to be......Try not to be a crotchety old man all the time....take a break once in a while..your heart will thank you.. You missed the whole point of the thread my friend..Arent we all here to learn and follow the code...?
 

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felonious smile.
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I dont think one way is better than the other, I just do what the "CODE" says you have to do..An inspector brought it to my attention about a year ago so now I do it the correct way. Just cause your the "Bad boy/rouge" electrician doesnt mean we all have to be......Try not to be a crotchety old man all the time....take a break once in a while..your heart will thank you.. You missed the whole point of the thread my friend..Arent we all here to learn and follow the code...?
I do many kitchens out here, the only time i cord and plug is if the appliance is not set at the time of my final. We are not required yet by our inspectors to provide disconnect for our kitchen appliances. Everyone has an a-hole so everyone has a way to do something. I would like to see the manufacturers be required to provide disconnect on the unit such as a switch mounted on the feed box of DW or a pull out integral on a range. The NFPA is not for the electrician.
 

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Discussion Starter #26
Ok I will get the two dollar breaker lock. But why the hell does the code require it. If you shut the breaker off, no power. Do they think someone is going to turn it on when you are not looking. If that is the case what about the 50 amp for the stove. You might be puttingon a new outlet and someone could turn it on. Hell breaker locks for all breakers.
 

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Fried Bologna um um good!
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Ok I will get the two dollar breaker lock. But why the hell does the code require it. If you shut the breaker off, no power. Do they think someone is going to turn it on when you are not looking. If that is the case what about the 50 amp for the stove. You might be puttingon a new outlet and someone could turn it on. Hell breaker locks for all breakers.


For safety. If the panel is within 50ft and in "sight" no lock is needed. But if its not in sight someone could cut it on by mistake. I've had carpenters kick a gfi and start flipping breakers trying to get the power on. I can see why it's required because my dad of all people flipped the wrong breaker on and ruined my new kleins in the process.....crap happens. I just perfer using a switch for a disconnect. To each his own. My way and captkirk's way are both code compliant. Scotts and nitros way is not code compliant unless the d/w is ul listed for a cord to be added.
 

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So than you could place a switch or cord and plug at the or a lock off at the breaker.
This whole situation would be a non-starter if it wasn't for:
"The provision for locking or adding a lock to
the disconnecting means shall be installed on or at the
switch or circuit breaker used as the disconnecting means
and shall remain in place with or without the lock installed."

Darn. So a double-pole switch with hasp-holes for locking is required (cheapest option I can think of). Up here they've started looking hard for switching being marked "Suitable for use as disconnect". It has caused some anguish.

Mike
 

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I can see why it's required because my dad of all people flipped the wrong breaker on and ruined my new kleins in the process.....crap happens.
We're required to lock and tag breakers of circuits we're working on. The lock-outs for breakers aren't all that effective, really, but they certainly make it obvious that somebody is working on it.

Mike
 

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On the commercial building project I'm just finishing up on, we used the permanently-installed circuit breaker locks (square-D QOB series in 120/208V branch panelboards and larger Square-D series breakers as required in 277/480V distribution panelboards) in lieu of locally-installed disconnects for many building loads, including domestic water heaters and unit heaters in the HVAC system.

They install easily onto the front of the circuit breakers prior to installing the deadfront panel. As a bonus, when somebody needs to do a lockout-tagout on that circuit, all they need is their lock and they don't have to chase down the correct breaker handle locking device.

It's one way to meet the code, albeit not the only way. In some cases I think there is value in having a local disconnect just for convenience sake, especially if the circuit breaker for that load is in an inaccessable part of the building.
 

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Ax grinder
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2,053 Posts
A breaker lock will not count for a disconnecting means under the 2011 NEC. 422.31(C) is specific for motor driven appliances.


(C) Motor-Operated Appliances Rated over​
18 Horsepower.

For permanently connected motor-operated appliances
with motors rated over​
18 horse power, the branchcircuit
switch or circuit breaker shall be permitted to serve
as the disconnecting means where the switch or circuit
breaker is within sight from the appliance. The disconnecting
means shall comply with 430.109 and 430.110.

Exception: If an appliance of more than
18 hp is provided
with a unit switch that complies with 422.34(A), (B), (C), or
(D), the switch or circuit breaker serving as the other disconnecting
means shall be permitted to be out of sight from

the appliance.


Actually under the 2008 NEC 422.32 does not allow a breaker lock for a disconnecting means of a motor driven appliance.

Chris
 

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Well, shoot, I'm learning more every day which is a good thing. I'm not up on the latest code cycle, the project I am working on (mentioned above) was designed years ago and meets the 2005 NEC edition per contract documents, so that's the version I am most familiar with now since I have lived and breathed this project for the last 1.5 years. Just getting all of the facility documentation in order now (as-builts, manuals, wiring diagrams, etc).

Thanks for the update on the 2011 version, I'll make note of this for my future projects.
 

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Fried Bologna um um good!
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8,094 Posts
I have argued that many times, some said a DW is not a motor driven appliance.


And some people think the copper water pipe that meets the definition of an electrode only has to be used as an Lectrode if he wants to :eek:.....That don't make em right.:thumbsup::laughing:
 

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610 Posts
I do many kitchens out here, the only time i cord and plug is if the appliance is not set at the time of my final. We are not required yet by our inspectors to provide disconnect for our kitchen appliances. Everyone has an a-hole so everyone has a way to do something. I would like to see the manufacturers be required to provide disconnect on the unit such as a switch mounted on the feed box of DW or a pull out integral on a range. The NFPA is not for the electrician.

the disconnects have to be accessible
 

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436 Posts
It is illegal to add a cord to a dishwasher if the d/w is not listed for a cord to be added. If it comes with a cord then it is legal to plug into a receptacle and the cord qualifys for a disconnect.

The breaker only qualifys as a disconnect if it is witin 50ft and in sight of the water heater.
Not trying to be condescending here, or contrary but ith this logic, what about a disposal? Most do not come with whips on them. They have to be added. Are you saying that if it didn’t come with one it has to also be hard wired?
My opinion on this is no, as long as the whip you use is UL listed for appliance use. When they only leave you with an open 1/2” knockout it’s up to you how you power it. That’s after the appliance in the listings concern.
Have you ever looked up the listing documents for a dishwasher and confirmed it says this unit is to only be hardwired? If that’s the case the Listing agency would require that be on a sticker in the junction box for the dishwasher.
Hmm🤔
 

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Neither could I but that was the response from a NY state electrical inspector we know.
A dishwasher would likely still be considered a motor operated appliance but under 422.31 (C) it would need to be over 1/8 horsepower to be covered by that rule. Otherwise (A) or (B)
 
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