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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I have a customer with this... We want to connect the hot tub where it is if possible without moving the existing telephone and TV service points. I know this is not ideal, but is it a code violation? I'm not sure. Thanks in advance. :glasses:

 

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Move the tub out 5'. How will anyone be able to service the demarcation points.

I could make this apply but personally I don't know if it is intended for cable & phone

680.11 Underground Wiring Location. Underground wiring
shall be permitted where installed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate
metal conduit, rigid polyvinyl chloride conduit, reinforced
thermosetting resin conduit, or Type MC cable, suitable
for the conditions subject to that location. Underground wiring
shall not be permitted under the pool unless this wiring is
necessary to supply pool equipment permitted by this article.
Minimum cover depths shall be as given in Table 300.5
.
 

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Hackenschmidt
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nbd to move the demarcs
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Move the tub out 5'. How will anyone be able to service the demarcation points.

I could make this apply but personally I don't know if it is intended for cable & phone

680.11 Underground Wiring Location. Underground wiring
shall be permitted where installed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate
metal conduit, rigid polyvinyl chloride conduit, reinforced
thermosetting resin conduit, or Type MC cable, suitable
for the conditions subject to that location. Underground wiring
shall not be permitted under the pool unless this wiring is
necessary to supply pool equipment permitted by this article.
Minimum cover depths shall be as given in Table 300.5
.
There's a stairwell leading to a landscape area just to the right of the tub that's not in the picture. I agree, it's not ideal, but it's where the customer wants it if he can have it there. The phone line comes up underground below a concrete patio too.... I agree, I'm not sure if the code reference you gave applies to low voltage like that. I'll have to keep researching this.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
nbd to move the demarcs
Maybe I'm a dummy, but I don't know what nbd means.... I think what I may do is tell the customer that he has a choice, move the hot tub, or move the low voltage. I would like to know, for my own sake though, if that is really a code violation.
 

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Hackenschmidt
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Maybe I'm a dummy, but I don't know what nbd means.... I think what I may do is tell the customer that he has a choice, move the hot tub, or move the low voltage. I would like to know, for my own sake though, if that is really a code violation.
sorry nbd = "no big deal" ... i don't think there's anything in the nec to prohibit blocking access to them but there would sure be something in the utility company requirements, working on them would be such a pain you might as well move them
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Maybe I'm a dummy, but I don't know what nbd means.... I think what I may do is tell the customer that he has a choice, move the hot tub, or move the low voltage. I would like to know, for my own sake though, if that is really a code violation.
sorry nbd = "no big deal" ... i don't think there's anything in the nec to prohibit blocking access

to them but there would sure be something in the utility company requirements, working on them would be such a pain you might as well move them
Thanks for clearing that up for me. - I agree, I bet the serving utilities might have something to say about it. I tried to call Comcast (the cable co) today and I got stuck with an operator from overseas who didn't have a clue why I was calling... You can imagine how that went. I think I'm just going to send the customer an estimate and let him know that he is either going to have to move the low-voltage, or move the hot tub. I'll leave all that responsibility to him.
 

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Chief Flunky
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Generally low voltage falls under chapter 7 which is the only chapter in the Code that you ignore chapters 1-3 unless it is specifically referenced from chapter 7.

The Code violation here is accessibility. Considering emergency services needs access that means enough space for a fire fighter in a Scott Air Pack...3'6", so they can cut utilities in the event of a fire. Telephone is low voltage now but not too long ago (1970s) it wasn't and still retains rules for 90 VAC ringer power on the yellow and black wires.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk
 

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Generally low voltage falls under chapter 7 which is the only chapter in the Code that you ignore chapters 1-3 unless it is specifically referenced from chapter 7.

The Code violation here is accessibility. Considering emergency services needs access that means enough space for a fire fighter in a Scott Air Pack...3'6", so they can cut utilities in the event of a fire. Telephone is low voltage now but not too long ago (1970s) it wasn't and still retains rules for 90 VAC ringer power on the yellow and black wires.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk
The NEC covers communication wires as you stated and you don't ignore Chapters 1-4 as they are the general rules that can be overridden by the other chapters.

The point also is that the section I mentioned states that underground wiring cannot be under the tub .... So why would that not apply. Chapter 7 may not mention wires by a hot tub but that does not mean we ignore chapter 6 article 680.

If you don't think low voltage can't hurt you in a pool then you are mistaken.

Also have you ever seen voltage on a cable wire that shouldn't be there? Please don't ignore this precaution.

Another issue is that you will have to do equipotential bonding if that tub is within 30" of the building. 680.42(B)

Equipotential bonding of perimeter surfaces in accordance
with 680.26(B)(2) shall not be required to be provided for spas
and hot tubs where all of the following conditions apply:
(1) The spa or hot tub shall be listed, labeled, and identified
as a self-contained spa for aboveground use.
(2) The spa or hot tub shall not be identified as suitable only
for indoor use.
(3) The installation shall be in accordance with the manufacturer’s
instructions and shall be located on or above
grade.
(4) The top rim of the spa or hot tub shall be at least 710 mm
(28 in.) above all perimeter surfaces that are within
760 mm (30 in.), measured horizontally from the spa or
hot tub. The height of nonconductive external steps for
entry to or exit from the self-contained spa shall not be
used to reduce or increase this rim height measurement.
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Generally low voltage falls under chapter 7 which is the only chapter in the Code that you ignore chapters 1-3 unless it is specifically referenced from chapter 7.

The Code violation here is accessibility. Considering emergency services needs access that means enough space for a fire fighter in a Scott Air Pack...3'6", so they can cut utilities in the event of a fire. Telephone is low voltage now but not too long ago (1970s) it wasn't and still retains rules for 90 VAC ringer power on the yellow and black wires.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk
The NEC covers communication wires as you stated and you don't ignore Chapters 1-4 as they are the general rules that can be overridden by the other chapters.

The point also is that the section I mentioned states that underground wiring cannot be under the tub .... So why would that not apply. Chapter 7 may not mention wires by a hot tub but that does not mean we ignore chapter 6 article 680.

If you don't think low voltage can't hurt you in a pool then you are mistaken.

Also have you ever seen voltage on a cable wire that shouldn't be there? Please don't ignore this precaution.

Another issue is that you will have to do equipotential bonding if that tub is within 30" of the building. 680.42(B)

Equipotential bonding of perimeter surfaces in accordance
with 680.26(B)(2) shall not be required to be provided for spas
and hot tubs where all of the following conditions apply:
(1) The spa or hot tub shall be listed, labeled, and identified
as a self-contained spa for aboveground use.
(2) The spa or hot tub shall not be identified as suitable only
for indoor use.
(3) The installation shall be in accordance with the manufacturer’s
instructions and shall be located on or above
grade.
(4) The top rim of the spa or hot tub shall be at least 710 mm
(28 in.) above all perimeter surfaces that are within
760 mm (30 in.), measured horizontally from the spa or
hot tub. The height of nonconductive external steps for
entry to or exit from the self-contained spa shall not be
used to reduce or increase this rim height measurement.
Wow, I did not even know about the 30 inch rule. I think that one has been violated, and passed inspection, a few times. I don't do a lot of pool work, in fact, I avoid it. However, I have hooked up some hot tubs and I'll have to look into that and see how that applies. For example, if you're within 30 in of a residence, sitting on a concrete pad, does that mean you have to bond to the rebar of the pad? .... Ugh, I fear a potential can of worms here.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
While browsing through 680, I saw something that related to a low voltage contact limit. I'm not sure, but maybe this only has to do with pool lighting. But, I wonder if somehow that might apply here. (Wondering if it applies to the underground wiring.) Anyway, I agree it's not a good idea to put it right next to the house, or low voltage like that, in any case. I think I'm going to tell the customer he's just going to have to move the hot tub. If not, I think he's just going to have to find someone else.
 

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Hackenschmidt
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Really? So it is NBD to dig up the yard and trench around the tub? Probably have to splice the incoming because it is to short. I would call that a bigger deal than wiring the tub.
Worst case you'd splice where the current NIDs are and run the cables 10' along the wall left or right. You could have the telco / cable co do it but I can't imagine bothering to do that.
 

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While browsing through 680, I saw something that related to a low voltage contact limit. I'm not sure, but maybe this only has to do with pool lighting. But, I wonder if somehow that might apply here. (Wondering if it applies to the underground wiring.) Anyway, I agree it's not a good idea to put it right next to the house, or low voltage like that, in any case. I think I'm going to tell the customer he's just going to have to move the hot tub. If not, I think he's just going to have to find someone else.
Low voltage contact limit is about lighting near the pool or tub.

To answer your other post-- you don't need to bond the rebar in the pad but you need equipotential bonding which means a #8 bare copper conductor that encircles the tub between 18-24" from the inside wall of the tub and 4-6" below subgrade.

Not sure how you would get 18" from the edge of the pool if it is up against the house.
 
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Light Bender
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I have a customer with this... We want to connect the hot tub where it is if possible without moving the existing telephone and TV service points. I know this is not ideal, but is it a code violation? I'm not sure. Thanks in advance. :glasses:

It's against Canadian code 68-070(2). Need 1.5 meters (5 feet)

I'd be surprised if there isn't something in the NEC
 

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Code matters aside, I'm struggling to sort out in my head how the safety of this installation would be enhanced if the demarc's weren't there?
 

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Code matters aside, I'm struggling to sort out in my head how the safety of this installation would be enhanced if the demarc's weren't there?
Whenever there are wires there is always a potential for them to get energized. How many times have we heard from members about voltage on the shielding of cable wires.

That is enough for the code to disallow it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
While browsing through 680, I saw something that related to a low voltage contact limit. I'm not sure, but maybe this only has to do with pool lighting. But, I wonder if somehow that might apply here. (Wondering if it applies to the underground wiring.) Anyway, I agree it's not a good idea to put it right next to the house, or low voltage like that, in any case. I think I'm going to tell the customer he's just going to have to move the hot tub. If not, I think he's just going to have to find someone else.
Low voltage contact limit is about lighting near the pool or tub.

To answer your other post-- you don't need to bond the rebar in the pad but you need equipotential bonding which means a #8 bare copper conductor that encircles the tub between 18-24" from the inside wall of the tub and 4-6" below subgrade.

Not sure how you would get 18" from the edge of the pool if it is up against the house.


Well, I've learned a few things here. I need to make sure a hot tub is at least 30 in from from a house. In 680.42(B)code states from all perimeter surfaces. Again, I'm pretty sure this one has been violated on numerous occasions. I've seen hot tubs close to deck railings, and I've seen hot tubs close to wooden posts that support a patio roof... I also agree there is a possibility for stray voltage, not really a good idea to have the tub that close for that reason as well.
 

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Hackenschmidt
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Whenever there are wires there is always a potential for them to get energized. How many times have we heard from members about voltage on the shielding of cable wires.

That is enough for the code to disallow it.
This is an excellent point, someone reaches from inside the tub and grabs a coax -- neighbor has an open service neutral or ?? -- not good!
 
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