Electrician Talk banner
1 - 20 of 46 Posts

· Registered
Joined
·
21 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
For XFMR's 600V or less....

It appears from article 450 that overcurrent protection is required on "both" the primary and secondary side of transformers.

I just talked to an electrical tech support person at ACME Electric who told me that secondary protection is only required in certain conditions, yet I can't find anything in the code book I have (1987) that says that. As far as I'm concerned, overcurrent protection is required for both the primary and secondary side.

Most of our applications at our business are low voltage controls with small transformers (under 500 VA) and sometimes Class 2 wiring. Note Class 2 wiring is covered in Article 725.

Am I correct, or is secondary overcurrent protection "or" primary overcurrent protection not always required?
 

· RIP 1959-2015
Joined
·
39,532 Posts
For XFMR's 600V or less....

It appears from article 450 that overcurrent protection is required on "both" the primary and secondary side of transformers.

I just talked to an electrical tech support person at ACME Electric who told me that secondary protection is only required in certain conditions, yet I can't find anything in the code book I have (1987) that says that. As far as I'm concerned, overcurrent protection is required for both the primary and secondary side.

Most of our applications at our business are low voltage controls with small transformers (under 500 VA) and sometimes Class 2 wiring. Note Class 2 wiring is covered in Article 725.

Am I correct, or is secondary overcurrent protection "or" primary overcurrent protection not always required?
Read all of 450.3 in the 2011 NEC.

Welcome to the forum.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
21 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Read all of 450.3 in the 2011 NEC.

Welcome to the forum.

I just purchased the 2005 code book on ebay for $5.00 - used. Are you saying that the 2011 NEC codebook has changes in it with regard to Article 450 that earlier versions like 2005 did not have? If that's the case, I just wasted $5 and have to get the 2011 edition.

Please let me know.
 

· Salty Member
Joined
·
31,030 Posts
I just purchased the 2005 code book on ebay for $5.00 - used. Are you saying that the 2011 NEC codebook has changes in it with regard to Article 450 that earlier versions like 2005 did not have? If that's the case, I just wasted $5 and have to get the 2011 edition.

Please let me know.
:laughing:

Hire someone that knows what they are doing.
 

· RIP 1959-2015
Joined
·
39,532 Posts
can you copy those few pages and email it to me?



thanks.[/quote]

450.3 Overcurrent Protection. Overcurrent protection of transformers shall comply with 450.3(A), (B), or (C). As used in this section, the word transformer shall mean a transformer or polyphase bank of two or more single-phase transformers operating as a unit.
Informational Note No. 1:  See 240.4, 240.21, 240.100, and 240.101 for overcurrent protection of conductors.
Informational Note No. 2:  Nonlinear loads can increase heat in a transformer without operating its overcurrent protective device.
(A) Transformers Over 600 Volts, Nominal. Overcurrent protection shall be provided in accordance with Table 450.3(A).
(B) Transformers 600 Volts, Nominal, or Less. Overcurrent protection shall be provided in accordance with Table 450.3(B).
Exception:  Where the transformer is installed as a motor control circuit transformer in accordance with 430.72(C)(1) through (C)(5).
Table 450.3(A)  Maximum Rating or Setting of Overcurrent Protection for Transformers
Over 600 Volts (as a Percentage of Transformer-Rated Current)
Location Limitations Transformer Rated Impedance Primary Protection over 600 Volts Secondary Protection (See Note 2.)
Over 600 Volts 600 Volts or Less
Circuit Breaker (See Note 4.) Fuse Rating Circuit Breaker (See Note 4.) Fuse Rating Circuit Breaker or Fuse Rating
Any location Not more than 6% 600%
(See Note 1.) 300%
(See Note 1.) 300%
(See Note 1.) 250%
(See Note 1.) 125%
(See Note 1.)
More than 6% and not more than 10% 400%
(See Note 1.) 300%
(See Note 1.) 250%
(See Note 1.) 225%
(See Note 1.) 125%
(See Note 1.)
Supervised locations only (See Note 3.) Any 300%
(See Note 1.) 250%
(See Note 1.) Not required Not required Not required
Not more than 6% 600% 300% 300%
(See Note 5.) 250%
(See Note 5.) 250%
(See Note 5.)
More than 6%
and not more
than 10% 400% 300% 250%
(See Note 5.) 225%
(See Note 5.) 250%
(See Note 5.)
Notes:
1. Where the required fuse rating or circuit breaker setting does not correspond to a standard rating or setting, a higher rating or setting that does not exceed the next higher standard rating or setting shall be permitted.
2. Where secondary overcurrent protection is required, the secondary overcurrent device shall be permitted to consist of not more than six circuit breakers or six sets of fuses grouped in one location. Where multiple overcurrent devices are utilized, the total of all the device ratings shall not exceed the allowed value of a single overcurrent device. If both circuit breakers and fuses are used as the overcurrent device, the total of the device ratings shall not exceed that allowed for fuses.
3. A supervised location is a location where conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified persons monitor and service the transformer installation.
4. Electronically actuated fuses that may be set to open at a specific current shall be set in accordance with settings for circuit breakers.
5. A transformer equipped with a coordinated thermal overload protection by the manufacturer shall be permitted to have separate secondary protection omitted.
Table 450.3(B)  Maximum Rating or Setting of Overcurrent Protection for Transformers
600 Volts and Less (as a Percentage of Transformer-Rated Current)
Protection Method Primary Protection Secondary Protection (See Note 2.)
Currents of 9 Amperes or More Currents Less Than 9 Amperes Currents Less Than 2 Amperes Currents of 9 Amperes or More Currents Less Than 9 Amperes
Primary only protection 125% (See Note 1.) 167% 300% Not required Not required
Primary and secondary protection 250% (See Note 3.) 250% (See Note 3.) 250% (See Note 3.) 125% (See Note 1.) 167%
Notes:
1. Where 125 percent of this current does not correspond to a standard rating of a fuse or nonadjustable circuit breaker, a higher rating that does not exceed the next higher standard rating shall be permitted.
2. Where secondary overcurrent protection is required, the secondary overcurrent device shall be permitted to consist of not more than six circuit breakers or six sets of fuses grouped in one location. Where multiple overcurrent devices are utilized, the total of all the device ratings shall not exceed the allowed value of a single overcurrent device.
3. A transformer equipped with coordinated thermal overload protection by the manufacturer and arranged to interrupt the primary current shall be permitted to have primary overcurrent protection rated or set at a current value that is not more than six times the rated current of the transformer for transformers having not more than 6 percent impedance and not more than four times the rated current of the transformer for transformers having more than 6 percent but not more than 10 percent impedance.
(C) Voltage Transformers. Voltage transformers installed indoors or enclosed shall be protected with primary fuses.
Informational Note:  For protection of instrument circuits including voltage transformers, see 408.52.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
21 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
450.3 Overcurrent Protection. Overcurrent protection of transformers shall comply with 450.3(A), (B), or (C). As used in this section, the word transformer shall mean a transformer or polyphase bank of two or more single-phase transformers operating as a unit.
Informational Note No. 1:  See 240.4, 240.21, 240.100, and 240.101 for overcurrent protection of conductors.
Informational Note No. 2:  Nonlinear loads can increase heat in a transformer without operating its overcurrent protective device.
(A) Transformers Over 600 Volts, Nominal. Overcurrent protection shall be provided in accordance with Table 450.3(A).
(B) Transformers 600 Volts, Nominal, or Less. Overcurrent protection shall be provided in accordance with Table 450.3(B).
Exception:  Where the transformer is installed as a motor control circuit transformer in accordance with 430.72(C)(1) through (C)(5).
Table 450.3(A)  Maximum Rating or Setting of Overcurrent Protection for Transformers
Over 600 Volts (as a Percentage of Transformer-Rated Current)
Location Limitations Transformer Rated Impedance Primary Protection over 600 Volts Secondary Protection (See Note 2.)
Over 600 Volts 600 Volts or Less
Circuit Breaker (See Note 4.) Fuse Rating Circuit Breaker (See Note 4.) Fuse Rating Circuit Breaker or Fuse Rating
Any location Not more than 6% 600%
(See Note 1.) 300%
(See Note 1.) 300%
(See Note 1.) 250%
(See Note 1.) 125%
(See Note 1.)
More than 6% and not more than 10% 400%
(See Note 1.) 300%
(See Note 1.) 250%
(See Note 1.) 225%
(See Note 1.) 125%
(See Note 1.)
Supervised locations only (See Note 3.) Any 300%
(See Note 1.) 250%
(See Note 1.) Not required Not required Not required
Not more than 6% 600% 300% 300%
(See Note 5.) 250%
(See Note 5.) 250%
(See Note 5.)
More than 6%
and not more
than 10% 400% 300% 250%
(See Note 5.) 225%
(See Note 5.) 250%
(See Note 5.)
Notes:
1. Where the required fuse rating or circuit breaker setting does not correspond to a standard rating or setting, a higher rating or setting that does not exceed the next higher standard rating or setting shall be permitted.
2. Where secondary overcurrent protection is required, the secondary overcurrent device shall be permitted to consist of not more than six circuit breakers or six sets of fuses grouped in one location. Where multiple overcurrent devices are utilized, the total of all the device ratings shall not exceed the allowed value of a single overcurrent device. If both circuit breakers and fuses are used as the overcurrent device, the total of the device ratings shall not exceed that allowed for fuses.
3. A supervised location is a location where conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified persons monitor and service the transformer installation.
4. Electronically actuated fuses that may be set to open at a specific current shall be set in accordance with settings for circuit breakers.
5. A transformer equipped with a coordinated thermal overload protection by the manufacturer shall be permitted to have separate secondary protection omitted.
Table 450.3(B)  Maximum Rating or Setting of Overcurrent Protection for Transformers
600 Volts and Less (as a Percentage of Transformer-Rated Current)
Protection Method Primary Protection Secondary Protection (See Note 2.)
Currents of 9 Amperes or More Currents Less Than 9 Amperes Currents Less Than 2 Amperes Currents of 9 Amperes or More Currents Less Than 9 Amperes
Primary only protection 125% (See Note 1.) 167% 300% Not required Not required
Primary and secondary protection 250% (See Note 3.) 250% (See Note 3.) 250% (See Note 3.) 125% (See Note 1.) 167%
Notes:
1. Where 125 percent of this current does not correspond to a standard rating of a fuse or nonadjustable circuit breaker, a higher rating that does not exceed the next higher standard rating shall be permitted.
2. Where secondary overcurrent protection is required, the secondary overcurrent device shall be permitted to consist of not more than six circuit breakers or six sets of fuses grouped in one location. Where multiple overcurrent devices are utilized, the total of all the device ratings shall not exceed the allowed value of a single overcurrent device.
3. A transformer equipped with coordinated thermal overload protection by the manufacturer and arranged to interrupt the primary current shall be permitted to have primary overcurrent protection rated or set at a current value that is not more than six times the rated current of the transformer for transformers having not more than 6 percent impedance and not more than four times the rated current of the transformer for transformers having more than 6 percent but not more than 10 percent impedance.
(C) Voltage Transformers. Voltage transformers installed indoors or enclosed shall be protected with primary fuses.
Informational Note:  For protection of instrument circuits including voltage transformers, see 408.52.

does the 2005 NEC code book include these Article 450 revisions, or were these changes made only in the 2011 edition.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1,937 Posts
For XFMR's 600V or less....

It appears from article 450 that overcurrent protection is required on "both" the primary and secondary side of transformers.

I just talked to an electrical tech support person at ACME Electric who told me that secondary protection is only required in certain conditions, yet I can't find anything in the code book I have (1987) that says that. As far as I'm concerned, overcurrent protection is required for both the primary and secondary side.

Most of our applications at our business are low voltage controls with small transformers (under 500 VA) and sometimes Class 2 wiring. Note Class 2 wiring is covered in Article 725.

Am I correct, or is secondary overcurrent protection "or" primary overcurrent protection not always required?
The problem is your "as far as I'm concerned" code reference. Far too many people citing that one and I have yet to see it in print
 

· Registered
Joined
·
21 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
:laughing:

Hire someone that knows what they are doing.

what kind of a stupid response is that? I've been in this business 25 years. If I asked all the local 134 electricians here in Chicago those same questions about article 450, I guarantee less than 10% of them would know the answer - probably less than 5%. That is most likely typical across the country. Don't respond to my posts unless you have something worthwhile to contribute.
 

· Salty Member
Joined
·
31,030 Posts
what kind of a stupid response is that? I've been in this business 25 years. If I asked all the local 134 electricians here in Chicago those same questions about article 450, I guarantee less than 10% of them would know the answer - probably less than 5%. That is most likely typical across the country. Don't respond to my posts unless you have something worthwhile to contribute.
It's an appropriate response to someone that thinks $5.00 is to much to spend on a code book.
 

· Senile Member
I make all the electrons line up for their Flu shots
Joined
·
37,546 Posts
BBQ Badgering new users again.

Instead of jumping on the guy you could have said something like " Hi I'm BBQ. How do you like me so far?"
 

· Registered
Joined
·
21 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
It's an appropriate response to someone that thinks $5.00 is to much to spend on a code book.
My question is about code interpretation, it's not regarding one specific application I have, but rather many applications that I and the other guys in the office run into on a regular basis.

The question is: Is both primary and secondary overcurrent protection required for transformers (600V or less), and if so, is this for all applications or only specific applications.

Here's a perfect example. Lets say I have a PLC controlling a large HVAC system in a commercial building. The PLC requires 24VAC (lets say 50 VA). I provide a transformer (120/24V) with a rating of 100VA to power the PLC. Do I have to provide overcurrent protection for both primary and secondary sides of the transformer?
 

· I own stock in FotoMat!
Joined
·
39,048 Posts
I just purchased the 2005 code book on ebay for $5.00 - used. Are you saying that the 2011 NEC codebook has changes in it with regard to Article 450 that earlier versions like 2005 did not have? If that's the case, I just wasted $5 and have to get the 2011 edition.

Please let me know.

The reason the Code is updated every 3 years is to include hundreds of changes. Changes based on new technology, long-term studies, etc. It's not updated just so everyone can buy a shiny new book.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1,937 Posts
Here's a perfect example. Lets say I have a PLC controlling a large HVAC system in a commercial building. The PLC requires 24VAC (lets say 50 VA). I provide a transformer (120/24V) with a rating of 100VA to power the PLC. Do I have to provide overcurrent protection for both primary and secondary sides of the transformer?[/QUOTE]


Secondary protection is not needed, but I would probably put an inline fuse on the secondary since it's cheaper to replace a fuse than a transformer
 

· RIP 1959-2015
Joined
·
39,532 Posts
BBQ actually seems like a decent and helpful guy. Perhaps I reacted to strongly to his comment.
He needs a good forum beating now and then please feel free to nail him good.:whistling2::laughing:

However he is one of the best when comes to the NEC.:)
 
1 - 20 of 46 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top