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A smart business is data driven. The data (results) of an operation or a procedure should be examined and changed using the data. A company makes candy bars and decides to add cherry sprinkles on top hoping to increase sales. The result (data) is that sales go down. The company reviews the data and makes the necessary changes.

Many NEC regulations need to be data driven. The NEC needs to respond to that to correct errors. Arc fault interrupters are a prime example. Suppose that before AFCI requirements went into effect, that 20 people per year died from residential electrocution. And then suppose that 2 years after AFCI regulations went into effect that there was still an average of 20 people a year were electrocuted. The results of the data would be that AFCI had no effect. Do you think the members of the NEC committees that manufacture AFCI devices would ever reverse the decision?

The NEC has run amok with new regulations with no accountability to the public or the profession. The same NEC committees that make unnecessary requirements for the profession, manufacture the products necessary to satisfy the regulations that burden the industry. It would be great to require gold plated breakers if you were the only one that made gold plated breakers.

It would be beneficial to the electrical industry if the NEC was held accountable to data. Results should be gathered and used to correct the NEC. Can you imagine the headline that read: “NEC reviews data from AFCI requirements and decides that AFCI requirements are rescinded” ?
 

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RIP 1959-2015
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A smart business is data driven. The data (results) of an operation or a procedure should be examined and changed using the data. A company makes candy bars and decides to add cherry sprinkles on top hoping to increase sales. The result (data) is that sales go down. The company reviews the data and makes the necessary changes.

Many NEC regulations need to be data driven. The NEC needs to respond to that to correct errors. Arc fault interrupters are a prime example. Suppose that before AFCI requirements went into effect, that 20 people per year died from residential electrocution. And then suppose that 2 years after AFCI regulations went into effect that there was still an average of 20 people a year were electrocuted. The results of the data would be that AFCI had no effect. Do you think the members of the NEC committees that manufacture AFCI devices would ever reverse the decision?

The NEC has run amok with new regulations with no accountability to the public or the profession. The same NEC committees that make unnecessary requirements for the profession, manufacture the products necessary to satisfy the regulations that burden the industry. It would be great to require gold plated breakers if you were the only one that made gold plated breakers.

It would be beneficial to the electrical industry if the NEC was held accountable to data. Results should be gathered and used to correct the NEC. Can you imagine the headline that read: “NEC reviews data from AFCI requirements and decides that AFCI requirements are rescinded” ?
Get used to them.

Learn to sell them.

Learn how to wire a house so that they work properly.

And enjoy the advantage you will gain over Electrical Contractors who are un-willing to learn to use them to their advantage...

Welcome to the forum......:thumbup:




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A smart business is data driven. The data (results) of an operation or a procedure should be examined and changed using the data. A company makes candy bars and decides to add cherry sprinkles on top hoping to increase sales. The result (data) is that sales go down. The company reviews the data and makes the necessary changes.

Many NEC regulations need to be data driven. The NEC needs to respond to that to correct errors. Arc fault interrupters are a prime example. Suppose that before AFCI requirements went into effect, that 20 people per year died from residential electrocution. And then suppose that 2 years after AFCI regulations went into effect that there was still an average of 20 people a year were electrocuted. The results of the data would be that AFCI had no effect. Do you think the members of the NEC committees that manufacture AFCI devices would ever reverse the decision?

The NEC has run amok with new regulations with no accountability to the public or the profession. The same NEC committees that make unnecessary requirements for the profession, manufacture the products necessary to satisfy the regulations that burden the industry. It would be great to require gold plated breakers if you were the only one that made gold plated breakers.

It would be beneficial to the electrical industry if the NEC was held accountable to data. Results should be gathered and used to correct the NEC. Can you imagine the headline that read: “NEC reviews data from AFCI requirements and decides that AFCI requirements are rescinded” ?
I agree. The NEC could be cut in half and it would still result in a safe, functional electrical system.
 

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Afcis are only the start of it. The nec is slowly turning into a design manual which will require all sorts unnecessary measures that will only benefit the manufacturers. Add that to the ridiculous proposals, safety requirements, and the overall dumbing down of the trade


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

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Wyome
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I have looked for statistics showing how much safer we are now that we have afcis working for us. I haven't seen that proof yet.
 

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I have looked for statistics showing how much safer we are now that we have afcis working for us. I haven't seen that proof yet.
If you make the assumption that they do as advertised it would be hard to find stats on fires that haven't happened.

Pete
 

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Sometimes, someone has to lead, not follow. There is a quote attributed to Henry Ford in response to why he expended so much time and energy pushing the world into automobiles instead of leaving them as expensive toys for the rich;

"if I listened to what people wanted, I would have given them a faster horse."
 

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If the NFPA wanted the NEC to be data-driven, all they'd have to do is kick out all the manufacturers reps from the Code panels. And I'd be all for it.
 

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Seems like the number fires should have dropped. That could be a statistic somewhere.
When you look at the fire data, you will find that the AFCI won't really prevent many fires for a long time. The number of fires that they would prevent, even if they were 100% effective, over the first five years of full compliance with the 2014 NEC would be so small as to be statistically insignificant.
 

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Statistically, data from the NFPA shows that since 2007 when AFCIs began widely entering the market, residential fires attributable to electrical malfunctions have decreased by over 10%, in 2010 alone it was down by >3000 fires. If you were one of those 3000, it would be statistically significant.
 

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Sometimes, someone has to lead, not follow. There is a quote attributed to Henry Ford in response to why he expended so much time and energy pushing the world into automobiles instead of leaving them as expensive toys for the rich;

"if I listened to what people wanted, I would have given them a faster horse."

This is a terrible analogy. Henry Ford didn't pressure the government to pass a law mandating that everyone had to own a car.
 

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Statistically, data from the NFPA shows that since 2007 when AFCIs began widely entering the market, residential fires attributable to electrical malfunctions have decreased by over 10%,
Which makes absolutely no sense, since 2007 only a fractional % of housing stock has been constructed.

Unless they're claiming that the .00001% of new construction with AFCIs is somehow protecting the 99.99999% of structures that don't have AFCIs and moat likely never will.

in 2010 alone it was down by >3000 fires. If you were one of those 3000, it would be statistically significant.
 

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NEC data input should take a ride down correlation does not imply causation avenue imho.....

~CS~
 

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Statistically, data from the NFPA shows that since 2007 when AFCIs began widely entering the market, residential fires attributable to electrical malfunctions have decreased by over 10%, in 2010 alone it was down by >3000 fires. If you were one of those 3000, it would be statistically significant.
Since 85% of the dwelling unit fires that are said to be of electrical origin occur in dwelling units over 20 years old, I don't see how that is possible.

Using the same fire data that was used to say we need AFCIs, you would expect to prevent 55 fires in the first year of full compliance with the 2014 NEC. After the first 5 years, you would expect to have prevented 845 fires.
 

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Statistically, data from the NFPA shows that since 2007 when AFCIs began widely entering the market, residential fires attributable to electrical malfunctions have decreased by over 10%, in 2010 alone it was down by >3000 fires. If you were one of those 3000, it would be statistically significant.
According to the NFPA dwelling unit fires of electrical origin were
~19,000 in 2004
~21,000 in 2005
~25,000 in 2006
~25,000 in 2007
~25,000 in 2008
~21,000 in 2009
~20,000 in 2010
~21,000 in 2010.
 

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My guess is a small percentage of homes have AFCI. It will be a long time before the majority of them do and a while to see whether there really is a decline that is truly proven to be attributed to these devices. Like another ten plus years.
 

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My guess is a small percentage of homes have AFCI. It will be a long time before the majority of them do and a while to see whether there really is a decline that is truly proven to be attributed to these devices. Like another ten plus years.
Exactly my point.
 

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I could crash the severs on both subjects (CMP and AFCIs)...

But I will just sum it up: Read my signature.



The NEC is a dated document that no one knows how to improve or cares as long as someone is profiting from the code rules, that being said people who know nor care.
 

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Fire Forensic stats aren't that accurate .

I forget this a.m. which gov entity collects them, but i do recall an annual questionaire

Iirc, something like 1/3- 1/2 the FD's send them back.

Most FD's simply aren't budgeted for detailed forensics. I've stood by nothing more than smoking cellar holes in my past, to which the chief(s) would claim 'electrical orgin' , simply due to nobody being home.

It's either that, or suspicious orgin, then the acelerant sniffer appears

I don't see how an all-afci society is going to have any of that change....

~CS~
 
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