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Need help! I think I'm being misled about the Apprenticeship Program?

15K views 80 replies 24 participants last post by  backstay 
#1 ·
Hey guys, sorry to bug you once again but here's been some big updates since I last posted about trying to get into the union and I need some BIG help because I feel I'm being giving an unfair deal:

Let me first start with what has all happened from the beginning. April 2011 I got a call from a Union electrical contractor about a possible job position. I was informed that I needed to call the local union #466 to apply for apprenticeship. I did so on April 21st, 2011 and paid my $25 fee for the JATC testing. While there, the secretary informed me if I could bring copies of my high school transcripts, Vocational school training, electrician's license, driver's license and present 8000+ hours working experience, that I would be granted an interview, pass or fail on the testing and with the hours, could by-pass the apprenticeship training. I brought all the records, including 1040 tax statements showing from 2001 to 2010 that I worked as an electrician.

I didn't hear anything back until November when I received a letter saying I had a testing date on December 8,2011. I went to the test and on January 6,2012 I received a letter saying I had passed and would be receiving another letter soon , stating when I would be given an interview. On January 10th,2012 I received a phone call from the local financial secretary asking me if I received the letter informing me that I had passed the test. I told them yes and the financial secretary then asked would I also be interested in the CW/CE program. Not really understanding what that was, I asked and he explained that I could go right to work for a local contractor and anytime there, could be applied towards the apprenticeship program. I then told him that I had presented copies of all my work records, schooling, etc and he said " Oh ok, well come in Friday and we will interview you".

So this morning I went to local 466 in Charleston,WV and met with the financial secretary and he began to talk about the CW/CE program, but not the apprenticeship program. When I asked him about the apprenticeship program he said " Well you haven't gotten your interview letter yet, this is for the CW/CE", he didn't tell me this on the phone. He made it sound like this would be my interview for the apprenticeship program. But just to see what it was, I went through the interview and he began showing me that I would most likely start at CW-1 wages ( which are far too low for me to make it on) and said if I could produce 14,000+ hrs, I could be moved up to CE-3 ( which is a little bit better than what I am currently making). He then informed me that IF I made CE-3, I would be on a 1 year waiting period before being eligible for the Apprenticeship program. After that? It would be 5 years before I would be eligible to take their Journeyman's testing. So all in all, 6 more years of waiting , despite having almost 11 years in the field as a documented Journeyman Electrician.

When I went to produce my work records again, he presented copies of what I had brought in April. He said they couldn't use my work hours because they didn't specify EXACT work hours. Well the only way for me to do that in this company I work for is to present weekly pay stubs and at 52 weeks per year for 10 years? That would be next to impossible.

I then explained that both my license and my tax records clearly state I was employed as electrician since June of 2001. The records stated the company I worked for ( and still do at this moment). He told me to send copies of the W-2s and they could maybe move me up to CE-3. I went home today, gathered my records and called him back and told him that I had W-2s for all but two years, yet have the 1040s for ALL years. He said " well just give us what you have and we'll go from there". I told him that would possibly short change my hours. He said " that's not my problem" I then told him I could call my work office and have the secretary fax the missing W-2s along with a formal letter showing my work hours , he then began to get hateful and said " that's not my job to go looking for your records and I'm not going to. You can give us what you got and that's it".



So my problem is this: with my work hours proven, along with completion of trade school and holding a Journeyman's card for almost 11 years. Is this legal for them to do this and should I even be IN the Apprenticeship Program at all? Because I've read on here and online that most people with this much experience would be in the JW1-JW2 program, NOT the apprenticeship. So why am I being given the run around? Any information would be helpful guys and I'm sorry for ranting on this long, I just wanted to state all the facts accurately. Thanks
 
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#2 ·
Here if you already carry a state license you just have to pass the union test, pay an initiation fee and your ready to sign the books.
We do not have the C- whatever program here because the state of Washington will not allow it.
 
#6 ·
I wish WV never adopted this CW/CE program. Because the guy I talked to outright said it's a program called Market Recovery Program. Which means it was started to allow union contractors the right to hire NON-Union guys that are TRYING to get in the union. See a CW/CE means you are not truly union, you are still waiting to get in. Your hours can count towards the apprenticeship, but you are not in, which to me is a load of crap and basically means your a scab even within the local you are working out of!
 
#4 ·
clockworkmike83 said:
Hey guys, sorry to bug you once again but here's been some big updates since I last posted about trying to get into the union and I need some BIG help because I feel I'm being giving an unfair deal:

Let me first start with what has all happened from the beginning. April 2011 I got a call from a Union electrical contractor about a possible job position. I was informed that I needed to call the local union #466 to apply for apprenticeship. I did so on April 21st, 2011 and paid my $25 fee for the JATC testing. While there, the secretary informed me if I could bring copies of my high school transcripts, Vocational school training, electrician's license, driver's license and present 8000+ hours working experience, that I would be granted an interview, pass or fail on the testing and with the hours, could by-pass the apprenticeship training. I brought all the records, including 1040 tax statements showing from 2001 to 2010 that I worked as an electrician.

I didn't hear anything back until November when I received a letter saying I had a testing date on December 8,2011. I went to the test and on January 6,2012 I received a letter saying I had passed and would be receiving another letter soon , stating when I would be given an interview. On January 10th,2012 I received a phone call from the local financial secretary asking me if I received the letter informing me that I had passed the test. I told them yes and the financial secretary then asked would I also be interested in the CW/CE program. Not really understanding what that was, I asked and he explained that I could go right to work for a local contractor and anytime there, could be applied towards the apprenticeship program. I then told him that I had presented copies of all my work records, schooling, etc and he said " Oh ok, well come in Friday and we will interview you".

So this morning I went to local 466 in Charleston,WV and met with the financial secretary and he began to talk about the CW/CE program, but not the apprenticeship program. When I asked him about the apprenticeship program he said " Well you haven't gotten your interview letter yet, this is for the CW/CE", he didn't tell me this on the phone. He made it sound like this would be my interview for the apprenticeship program. But just to see what it was, I went through the interview and he began showing me that I would most likely start at CW-1 wages ( which are far too low for me to make it on) and said if I could produce 14,000+ hrs, I could be moved up to CE-3 ( which is a little bit better than what I am currently making). He then informed me that IF I made CE-3, I would be on a 1 year waiting period before being eligible for the Apprenticeship program. After that? It would be 5 years before I would be eligible to take their Journeyman's testing. So all in all, 6 more years of waiting , despite having almost 11 years in the field as a documented Journeyman Electrician.

When I went to produce my work records again, he presented copies of what I had brought in April. He said they couldn't use my work hours because they didn't specify EXACT work hours. Well the only way for me to do that in this company I work for is to present weekly pay stubs and at 52 weeks per year for 10 years? That would be next to impossible.

I then explained that both my license and my tax records clearly state I was employed as electrician since June of 2001. The records stated the company I worked for ( and still do at this moment). He told me to send copies of the W-2s and they could maybe move me up to CE-3. I went home today, gathered my records and called him back and told him that I had W-2s for all but two years, yet have the 1040s for ALL years. He said " well just give us what you have and we'll go from there". I told him that would possibly short change my hours. He said " that's not my problem" I then told him I could call my work office and have the secretary fax the missing W-2s along with a formal letter showing my work hours , he then began to get hateful and said " that's not my job to go looking for your records and I'm not going to. You can give us what you got and that's it".

So my problem is this: with my work hours proven, along with completion of trade school and holding a Journeyman's card for almost 11 years. Is this legal for them to do this and should I even be IN the Apprenticeship Program at all? Because I've read on here and online that most people with this much experience would be in the JW1-JW2 program, NOT the apprenticeship. So why am I being given the run around? Any information would be helpful guys and I'm sorry for ranting on this long, I just wanted to state all the facts accurately. Thanks
In MO you would be elgible for the accelerated program which means you would go to school one night a week for about 4 years I think. Not sure what starting wage is, I think it
Is around 75% but I could be wrong. Cw/ce's are predominantly young guys here and definitely with out
A license. Sounds a bit off.
 
#10 ·
Here in WV you have to have a license to work, no if ands or buts. From what this guy I talked to told me, the CW/CE program is under the Market Recovery Program and it's a loophole basically to allow union contractors the right to hire non-union guys who are trying to get in. If I did this CE crap? I wouldn't be union by their standards. At best if I made it to CE-3, I'd still wait another year before eligibility in the apprenticeship.

It's a fraud system if you ask me. I mean how can anyone outright say after 2 years of vocational school, then almost 11 years of proven commercial/industrial/hospital experience, you aren't equal to someone who sat in their program for a mere 7 years at the most as a student?

Here in WV, the law states to gain an Apprentice License you need only to learn the first 4 chapters of the NEC, with no work experience necessary and pass that test, administered by the State Fire Marshal's Office. For Journeyman License? You need to be an Apprentice card holder for 4 documented years OR 1080hrs Vocational School ( which I did and graduated with Outstanding Student Honors in 2001) and then pass the Journeyman's test. For Master's License, it's 5 years documented holding the Journeyman's card. I've held mine for 11 years, am eligible to take the test, yet haven't had the time to schedule it in, though I will.

That being said. It would take the Local 466's apprentice a minimum of 4 years to even be eligible for a Journeyman's card, factor 3 more years experience after the license and you are a 7th Tier Apprentice. I have almost 11 after mine. Am I not more qualified than ANY of their apprentices? Not to mention I have specialty licenses I'm sure they do not have, such as Fire Alarm, Nurse Call and Security as an extra
 
#11 ·
The cw program here is for newbies trying to get in to the apprenticeship, or guys that are just helpers...cheap labor.
In our local, with 11 years experience you could be just voted in, but they would have to know you, seen your work, work habits etc... Otherwise you have to sit on book forever and prove yourself when you get the job.
 
#28 ·
Wireman191 said:
If you get a pay raise most likely the union got a pay raise.
That is if your not the boss.
No if I get or give a pay raise its because Am making more money. You might find this hard to believe but at least in NE the union has nothing to do with the pay scale.
If anything they bring it down because most of them haven't worked in awhile and are trunk slamming like no other
 
#29 ·
chadw said:
So lets go with your theory. And everyone quits the local....Next thing you know your wage drops and stays the same year after year....Great plan, don't stick together for your wages. Let the Big money bosses control you and work for peanuts. It's a fact that if big business goes unchecked it eats everything it can.
That's what the Union is in theory, but in reality it's another beast altogether.
 
#31 ·
The union job is to protect their members and bargain for them and to arrange for work with signatory contractors.

For none members the union can and does treat these workers as the like. They can woo you in times of high unemployment, ignore you in mediocre times and work against at anytime.

While I feel the treatment you are getting is hardly fair, there is little or nothing you can do other than try to get in.

That they ignore your past work is hardly fair in the real world, that they seem to be treating you rudely is not unusual. After all they are union and you received your training open shop, many feel this makes you less of an electrician. Some people are even rude enough to use derogatory names to describe you and your open shop training.
 
#32 ·
Fair enough, I can agree on that completely. See? We can do this without fighting, it's easier than you think. I get the whole anger from them over me working non-union, but for anyone, including them, to think my training was sub-level is insane. If anything? I would be willing to bet my training might even be greater. Why is that? Because I had to learn the hardest way you can : trial by fire.

My dad is an electrician for over 30 years now. He used to be out in the field until about 8 years ago, he landed a dream job as head electrician in Charleston at the Center For National Response Training Facility (Department of Homeland Security and Department of Defense Training Center). But he still operates a side business , doing residential and light commercial and from the time I was 11 years old, I've worked with him on old rewires and new residential construction. That gave me a big boost by the time I got to Vocational school and by the time I graduated, I had already had on the job training before even taking my electricians test.

From the time I was 18, I joined this company I'm with now and my first job was a $5.2 mil Trauma Center addition on a hospital, that my dad was actually running. He left however, only 6 months in for the job he's at now. Before he did however, he remained on the job for another 1 1/2 weeks and in that short amount of time, he showed me what I would need to know on Fire Alarm, Nurse Call AND Security. So basically I had to learn all specialty wiring in the matter of less than 2 weeks. My boss decided instead of replacing him with someone I felt would be more qualified, he tossed me into the ring and more-less told me " sink or swim". Well, I finished the job with only 1 helper ( a 77-year old man who was semi-retired) 1 month ahead of schedule and under budget. How I did this? I have no idea lol But since then, I've been tossed these jobs with little or no help at all and have never had one go over budget or over schedule.
As for the Fire Alarm/Nurse Call/Security? I'm now basically the company's go-to-guy on any job we have going from hospitals, to schools, hell even prisons.

So when someone in the union wants to say " Well you aren't as well trained as our apprentices?" I will gladly argue that debate any day of the week. I've worked union for a short while and I can't tell you one person who could do or had done what I had in my age bracket.
 
#34 ·
Clock, does the local take in Journeymen through testing? For you to go through an apprenticeship is just dumb. The CE/CW program sucks for everyone except for the contractors. They are trying to save money on labor and benefits. Some locals contracts will only allow CE/CW on small jobs like residential and light commercial. With your stated education and experience both the local and contractors would take advantage of you.

We had a CE/CW on an industrial job (which was against the CBA) and the contractor paid full JW wage. Reason, because his father is a open shop EC who had previously been union and the local/NECA was trying to win them back.

Do you work consistent 40 hour weeks, any benefits where you are? If you were a JW with the local would you work the same number of hours?

I hate to say it but it has been my experience to see IBEW Local management staff treat a lot of people like s#%t in several states.
 
#35 ·
clockworkmike83 said:
Fair enough, I can agree on that completely. See? We can do this without fighting, it's easier than you think. I get the whole anger from them over me working non-union, but for anyone, including them, to think my training was sub-level is insane. If anything? I would be willing to bet my training might even be greater. Why is that? Because I had to learn the hardest way you can : trial by fire.

My dad is an electrician for over 30 years now. He used to be out in the field until about 8 years ago, he landed a dream job as head electrician in Charleston at the Center For National Response Training Facility (Department of Homeland Security and Department of Defense Training Center). But he still operates a side business , doing residential and light commercial and from the time I was 11 years old, I've worked with him on old rewires and new residential construction. That gave me a big boost by the time I got to Vocational school and by the time I graduated, I had already had on the job training before even taking my electricians test.

From the time I was 18, I joined this company I'm with now and my first job was a $5.2 mil Trauma Center addition on a hospital, that my dad was actually running. He left however, only 6 months in for the job he's at now. Before he did however, he remained on the job for another 1 1/2 weeks and in that short amount of time, he showed me what I would need to know on Fire Alarm, Nurse Call AND Security. So basically I had to learn all specialty wiring in the matter of less than 2 weeks. My boss decided instead of replacing him with someone I felt would be more qualified, he tossed me into the ring and more-less told me " sink or swim". Well, I finished the job with only 1 helper ( a 77-year old man who was semi-retired) 1 month ahead of schedule and under budget. How I did this? I have no idea lol But since then, I've been tossed these jobs with little or no help at all and have never had one go over budget or over schedule.
As for the Fire Alarm/Nurse Call/Security? I'm now basically the company's go-to-guy on any job we have going from hospitals, to schools, hell even prisons.

So when someone in the union wants to say " Well you aren't as well trained as our apprentices?" I will gladly argue that debate any day of the week. I've worked union for a short while and I can't tell you one person who could do or had done what I had in my age bracket.
Sounds like they are jerking you around, over here in my local in ca, if you want to organize in you need to old your state license have verifiable 8,000 otj hours and pass a hands on test the training director and teachers give. If you pass that then you have to pass our local exam and get voted in at the union meeting.
 
#36 ·
You union folks south of the border have some really messed up rules. When I applied to the union, that's all I had to do.I applied as an apprentice, four months later I got a phone call saying they wanted to intervew me the next day. The next day came, they interviewed me like it was any other job and at the end they told me that if I wanted the job I could have it and I could start the next day. I started the next day and 4 months later I was sworn in.

No tests, no bull****, just an interview, and a job offering. Same goes for J-Men who want to join.
 
#49 ·
For the brief time that I was in the Union I saw a few journeyman who couldn't even make a box offset in 1/2". A few others would run 20" of pipe in an entire day. There was other stuff too but basically the Union had awesome electricians and complete morons as well. So do non-union shops. I don't like that Union guys pretend like all their 'brothers' are the most supreme electricians that ever walked the face of the earth. lol
 
#50 · (Edited)
I currently work non union, I have been with the same company for 16 years and I had 4 years with a company before that. I went to 3 years of vocational school in high school, I went to 4 years of apprentice school, and I have a master license. After my apprentice I got a company truck and started doing service calls then small jobs. Now I do some of the largest and most difficult jobs we get, and service calls night and weekends. I always take pride in doing a nice job.

The union has been after me to join for a while. They call me every few months ask if I am busy and if I am interested. And they have stoped out 4 times on the job where I am working ( lucky I have not had to talk to them don't want to listen to all the B.S.) they leave there business card on my company truck.

My problem is I would like to join but when I talked to the business manager a few years ago he told me I had to start as a apprentice. No thank you
 
#57 ·
But what excuse do you have that most union JW's can't wire up a R way switch, bend a perfect box offset, troubleshoot a machine, or work on a job without someone holding thir hand the whole way? Ohh wait, they are already in the union....so they don't need to know that because they are better then those scabby rat ****s right?

Your brain washed thinking that......That`s all I`m going to say.
 
#58 ·
No I'm not brainwashed at all. I'm a card carrying member of the IBEW Lu 804 and I see it, and hear about it everyday. I could name over 50 JW that can't wire a 3 way switch, and probably 200 more that couldn't trouble shoot a machine if their life depoended on it.
 
#61 ·
jordan_paul said:
Haahahahahahah. That's a good joke buddy. Schooling dosent make a better JW. Experience does. You can cram electrical theory down anyone's throat, but if they don't have experience to back it up they are useless. And there's some things you can't teach people. Like work ethic, and many union JW thing schooling replaces that.

But what excuse do you have that most union JW's can't wire up a R way switch, bend a perfect box offset, troubleshoot a machine, or work on a job without someone holding thir hand the whole way? Ohh wait, they are already in the union....so they don't need to know that because they are better then those scabby rat ****s right?

And in this case it appears that its not the OP's choice if he repeats the apprenticeship program.
I agree!!!! I may not know everything they teach in the union apprenticeship program but how many do you think remember everything. Very few IMO. That's why people are specialized in certain things. I have seen some really nice jobs done by the IBEW and some really poor ones and it's that way both ways union and non. There are guys that work for the company I work for that do sh*t work. I make sure my jobs look like someone has taken pride in there job.
 
#65 ·
So if there wasn't the union competiton there, you would still give the same raise, or say that you and a few other business owners control a large majority of the local elec companies. You could pay whatever you felt like or didn't feel like...thats asking for corruption.
 
#67 ·
The Ibew local 1340 gave me a packet saying study these ones which were like 5 algebra and functions problems and 3 reading comprehension I am wondering is that what the test is really on my test is Feb 1st?? Should I study more algebra question or what please help....and he say I got get a 4 if any of yal know what that mean??
 
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