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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Im asking this question for my uncle, I didn't have an answer for him.....

Hes got a 60 year old house. He wants to get a new meter can and 100A service. All the estimates he has been getting they are trying to sell him a complete rewire telling him that if they touch it, branch circuits need to come up to code.

Are these guys trying to sell him a rewire too or does he have to bring everything up to code?

Where is the line drawn in the sand to what is grandfathered (NEC doesn't mention that right?) and what is not? Or is this up to the ahj?
 

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Im asking this question for my uncle, I didn't have an answer for him.....

Hes got a 60 year old house. He wants to get a new meter can and 100A service. All the estimates he has been getting they are trying to sell him a complete rewire telling him that if they touch it, branch circuits need to come up to code.

Are these guys trying to sell him a rewire too or does he have to bring everything up to code?

Where is the line drawn in the sand to what is grandfathered (NEC doesn't mention that right?) and what is not? Or is this up to the ahj?
I have to admit... the code requirements for IN I don't know. If it were in OH you would not have to upgrade the branch circuits or feeders on a service change.

Pete
 

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Where is the line drawn in the sand to what is grandfathered (NEC doesn't mention that right?) and what is not? Or is this up to the ahj?
More there's a line written in the bid/quote/proposal stating component(s) replacement will be $XXX , and anything the 'powers that be' want will be extra mwr

~CS~
 

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I'd ask. We don't have to here.
Weelllll. As far as AFCIs go, if the panel is in a location that requires AFCI protection (ie, recessed in a living room wall), then the breakers must be brought up to code according to the state electrical inspectors. Basements or garages? No problemo, slam it in as always. Recessed in the living room and loaded with mwbc's? Phuuuuuuuuuuck. Glad I haven't run into that one yet. :laughing:
 

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Newmarket will have you upgrade/add smoke detectors with a permit. Confusing the requirement for receptacle replacement requirement for AFCI protection as of January? What does panel replacement or location have to do with anything? Which one of the guys did this come from?
 

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Newmarket will have you upgrade/add smoke detectors with a permit. Confusing the requirement for receptacle replacement requirement for AFCI protection as of January? What does panel replacement or location have to do with anything? Which one of the guys did this come from?
I was just referring to "bringing circuits up to code". OP didn't say anything about receptacle replacement, but might have inferred it. The AFCI info came from the state inspector, Alfio Torrisi, one of the state electrical inspectors. Why the panel's location has anything to do with AFCIs, I have no idea, merely relaying the interpretation based on first hand info from a state inspector.

Ya'll may now carry on with your regularly scheduled programming. :laughing:
 

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I don't see him, but I see John or Dean from time to time, have to ask them about that. At least they'll talk about it or provide a reference.
 

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Aren't these two different issues here fellas? One would be the state asking for smokes and gfci's , totally unrelated to a panel upgrade.

They can insist on life safety updates , regardless of what other work is going on, and rightly so as some of the slums (at least here) may not have seen anyone in a position of authority for a dog's age.

Vs. , (for ex) upgrading a service to a meter/main, subbing old existing panel out , and leaving the old seu's (2 wire & grd) as future work

Said seu's should rightly be ser's (2 wire, noodle & grd) , but that would not be part of the serv upgrade

~CS~
 

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Im asking this question for my uncle, I didn't have an answer for him.....

Hes got a 60 year old house. He wants to get a new meter can and 100A service. All the estimates he has been getting they are trying to sell him a complete rewire telling him that if they touch it, branch circuits need to come up to code.

Are these guys trying to sell him a rewire too or does he have to bring everything up to code?

Where is the line drawn in the sand to what is grandfathered (NEC doesn't mention that right?) and what is not? Or is this up to the ahj?

BTW, go 200 amp the cost is 40 bucks more but saves the nightmare of when electric cars/heated pools/solar ect become all the rage.


Unless the wiring is in deplorable condition there would be no need to change any of it. Code doesn't really dictate bringing everything to code just for a service change.
 

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I feel i can do a 'component change' , even if it is a major component w/o addressing associated electrical equipment.

Methinks it prudent to give customers that option

The 'all or nothing' avenue results in nothing being done far too often, to the point where i've had enough of them simply claim they'll wait for it to burn out & call their insurer.


If the state has other ideas, it's up to them to sell them, OR insist on them, but i won't be cited on something i did not touch

This is WHY i pull a permit , often complete with details btw....

A symbiant relationship means the decision process follows suit

~CS~
 

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If inspectors are allowed to force homeowners to update their wiring to current codes simply because of a service change/upgrade someone should start a class action lawsuit.

A home is bought...insurance company wants the fuses replaced with breakers...because of this, the home needs to be rewired completely...$20,000 100A service change.
 

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Weelllll. As far as AFCIs go, if the panel is in a location that requires AFCI protection (ie, recessed in a living room wall), then the breakers must be brought up to code according to the state electrical inspectors. Basements or garages? No problemo, slam it in as always. Recessed in the living room and loaded with mwbc's? Phuuuuuuuuuuck. Glad I haven't run into that one yet. :laughing:
Vermonts ex chief inspector , being rather enamoured of the new technologies alleged attributes, insisted on afci's for all serv upgrades some 15 yrs ago

The result was an impossible situation, especially since 2pole afci's weren't yet marketed.

His response was (seriously):rolleyes: to go back and install them when they hit the market

Some of the larger outfits in the state forwarded to the nfpa to formally interpet the requirement for afci's in a panel upgrade

The response was negative, and stands to this day here

~CS~
 

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If inspectors are allowed to force homeowners to update their wiring to current codes simply because of a service change/upgrade someone should start a class action lawsuit.

A home is bought...insurance company wants the fuses replaced with breakers...because of this, the home needs to be rewired completely...$20,000 100A service change.
The state can be held responsible for their actions , just as an EC or any other player can DeepOne.

Often the situation falls on the insurance co's make the call, shutting out the local players


For instance i have had a number of K&T removal jobs due to them insisting on it's removal, or cancellation of policy


But as K&T often evolved to have BX made to it, i'm hired to extricate one, and leave the other.

That zero tolerance policy has had some of the better ahj's rattled here, because in their mind (as well as myself) we're leaving the greater hazard in place

Now were i a litigant hound, i'd be dialing up the CPSC , or other such consumer protective oversight, asking why an afci of gfci installation wouldn't qualify one's older circuitry insurable

THERE's your CAS .....! ~CS~
 

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Doing over a six family for the insurance reasons. Waiting on a building permit. All knob and tube gone or be cancelled. Good for us. This place hasn't had a whole lot done since the fifties. Still has a bunch of gas stoves that double as the furnace.
 

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I lived in bellows falls with one of those gas log/stoves, and the older toliet w/tank up high on the wall

good times....:whistling2:

~CS~
 

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Haven't been to BF in a few years. Customer has housing units there. The old converted armory building.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
More there's a line written in the bid/quote/proposal stating component(s) replacement will be $XXX , and anything the 'powers that be' want will be extra mwr

~CS~

The verbage in the estimates he has been getting say something like

"all work to conform to current code requirments of the applicable jurisdiction point. Price includes material and labor unless otherwise specified".

So is that a nice way of saying, its going to cost you 1500 bucks now but when the ahj comes over all bets are off?


So an estimate in this case is worthless.

Of course with a new panel Uncle wants a new circuit or two run and a few issues resolved on a current circuit... now branch circuits are actually being touched. Old house too... kitchen on one circuit, no dedicated bathroom circuit many multiwire circuits.... even if its treated as an exact replacement... that wont pass an inspection then right?
 

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The verbage in the estimates he has been getting say something like

"all work to conform to current code requirments of the applicable jurisdiction point. Price includes material and labor unless otherwise specified".

So is that a nice way of saying, its going to cost you 1500 bucks now but when the ahj comes over all bets are off?

So an estimate in this case is worthless.
Almost every contractual document has an out for the decisions or actions of others mwr, the ever popular 'Acts of God' the insurance cabal prints in .000002 font being my all time fav

It doesn't make us shady to employ the same protectants


~CS~
 
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