[jammin9]

I have a building to wire that is 3 stories. The original building (combustible) takes up the first 2 floors and half way back where add ons were constructed (non-combustible) for the back portion and the upper 3rd floor. the first floor is commercial space, and the top 2 floors are residential units. The residential units have been fire seperated from the common areas and the commercial space. is in ok to use NMD for these residential spaces and if so where in the Ontario or Canadian building code does it say its ok. All I found in Part 9 stating that except dwelling units nmd has to be used in combustible construction.

Thanks

 

[HARRY304E]

I have a building to wire that is 3 stories. The original building (combustible) takes up the first 2 floors and half way back where add ons were constructed (non-combustible) for the back portion and the upper 3rd floor. the first floor is commercial space, and the top 2 floors are residential units. The residential units have been fire seperated from the common areas and the commercial space. is in ok to use NMD for these residential spaces and if so where in the Ontario or Canadian building code does it say its ok. All I found in Part 9 stating that except dwelling units nmd has to be used in combustible construction.

Thanks

...........

 

[FrunkSlammer]

Yeah nmd in combustible area.. bx in non-combustible.

 

[jammin9]

well then whats the exception for dwelling units?

 

[jammin9]

9.34.1.5. Wiring and Cables
(1) Except for dwelling units and except as required in Sentence (2), optical fibre cables and electrical wires and cables installed in buildings permitted to be of combustible construction shall,
(a) not convey flame or continue to burn for more than 1 min when tested in conformance with the Vertical Flame Test in Clause 4.11.1. of CSA C22.2 No. 0.3, “Test Methods for Electrical Wires and Cables”, (FT1 rating), or
(b) be located in,
(i) totally enclosed noncombustible raceways,
(ii) masonry walls,
(iii) concrete slabs, or
(iv) totally enclosed non metallic raceways conforming to Clause 3.1.5.20.(1)(b).
(2) Where a concealed space in a floor or ceiling assembly is used as a plenum, electrical wires and cables within the plenum shall conform to Sentence 3.6.4.3.(1).

 

[FrunkSlammer]

I don't have a copy of building code or fire code.. probably nobody here does.

What exactly is your question?

 

[jammin9]

Well I already ran nmd in the dwelling units and the inspector doesn't know if it's ok and needs me to find out. So in trying to figure out if it's passable by code.

 

[99cents]

Well I already ran nmd in the dwelling units and the inspector doesn't know if it's ok and needs me to find out. So in trying to figure out if it's passable by code.

Huh??

This guy works out of an office with inspectors of every discipline. Is he plain stupid or playing stupid? Tell him to ask the guy in the cubicle beside him.

 

[jammin9]

Ya he wants to get the architect to do it. And the architect says it's up to the electrician. Lol so it's just coming full circle. He told me that table 19 says use of nmd in construction types but that's bull****.

 

[99cents]

You may as well go to the printer and make up your own green stickers.

 

[jammin9]

Tell me about it. I also did a load calc for the building and it came out to 165a. He is telling me there is a 80% rule on service calculations and we have to pay hydro 15,000 to upgrade.

 

[jammin9]

The building is 200a and he said you "probably" have to upgrade to 400a. Probably? His probably is costing me 15,000$

 

[99cents]

Good god. Sounds like the small town I lived in once where the building inspector was a full time baker and a part time inspector.

 

[FrunkSlammer]

Tell me about it. I also did a load calc for the building and it came out to 165a. He is telling me there is a 80% rule on service calculations and we have to pay hydro 15,000 to upgrade.

I don't know what this 80% rule is.. but 80% of 200A is 160A. Could you not find some sneaky way to eliminate 5A from your load calc to save your company $15k? I know I sure would!

 

[jammin9]

Ya that's what I'm working on. I mean we got all gas ranges and dryers

 

[99cents]

I don't know what this 80% rule is.. but 80% of 200A is 160A. Could you not find some sneaky way to eliminate 5A from your load calc to save your company $15k? I know I sure would!

Round your numbers down instead of up and there's your five amps.

 

[FrunkSlammer]

Crunch those numbers tighter! Use absolute minimum square meter area, and round down where ya can.. gotta be able to squeeze out 5A. :devil2:

With gas range and dryers I'm surprised you even came up with 165A, is there air conditioning?

Edit:

Round your numbers down instead of up and there's your five amps.

Lol great minds think alike.

 

[99cents]

Maybe he could hang a windmill out the window and return five amps back to the grid. The inspector would be so confused he would go back to his job at the bakery.

 

[jammin9]

Haha. Honestly. Throw a solar panel up. I was just wondering your guys input on the nmd in a dwelling unit. Seems like a grey area

 

[Navyguy]

I have some limited and dated experience with this stuff so I will throw in what I can...

Ontario Building Code 2012 – Division A 1.4.1.2 Dwelling unit means a suite operated as a housekeeping unit, used or intended to be used by one or more persons and usually containing cooking, eating, living, sleeping and sanitary facilities.

Division B 3.1.2 .1- 3.1.2.1. Classification of Buildings (1) Except as provided by Articles 3.1.2.3. to 3.1.2.7., every building or part of it shall be classified according to its major occupancy as belonging to one of the Groups or Divisions described in Table 3.1.2.1.

So the question is the building classified as a Group C (no division) “Residential Occupancy” or some other rating because of the business type in the other sections of the building? What I have found is that only if the “sections” of the building are fully separated by fire separation will you get a multiple occupancy rating.

In section 3.1.3 Multiple Occupancy Requirements talks about the separation requirements... without putting the whole section out there... essentially you need the higher fire ratings because of the lack of separation between the units, thus FT1 wire (standard NMD) is not acceptable and must be wired in BX FT6 or conduit having a FT4 rating. This is also interconnected with the plenum requirements (like above drop ceiling, etc) where FT6 rated cables must be used.

So you need to find out what the classification of the building is... I am assuming it will not be Group C... and wire according to those requirements. This will also force you to consider all the fire alarm issues (pull stations, interconnected smoke alarms, heat detectors, etc).

Cheers

John Kuehnl-Cadwell
Master Electrician