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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
I’m not asking if the secondary should be bonded, just the frame of the xfmr. How are other ungrounded delta xfmrs bonded? I’ve never seen a xfmr without a bond to GEC. The way I read the NEC it says that I need to connect a GEC to every xfmr above 1000va. When my inspector comes and looks at this xfmr, I want to have a response for why it doesn’t have a GEC.
 

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I’m not asking if the secondary should be bonded, just the frame of the xfmr. How are other ungrounded delta xfmrs bonded? I’ve never seen a xfmr without a bond to GEC. The way I read the NEC it says that I need to connect a GEC to every xfmr above 1000va. When my inspector comes and looks at this xfmr, I want to have a response for why it doesn’t have a GEC.
If it’s likely to become energized, then bond it. (I don’t know if it’s actually required)
They aren’t.
Ok, but it does happen.
Not true.
Show him this thread.
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
That is how I see it. It’s delta-delta, no X0 for me to bond. I was able to check another OR’s (there are maybe 20 here) set up and there also wasn’t any bond I could see (only primary and secondary conduits leaving the remote xfmrs that are mounted in the interstitial space above the ceiling). This installation is at least 30 years old. I was told to remove and reconnect, and I have, but I want to have a code reference for my inspector. I appreciate the help.
 

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Bonding the secondary side defeats the whole purpose of an isolated system.
This is an isolation transformer specifically for monitoring the secondary side, yes? So you're not changing the voltage - you're not creating a new service. No need to bond, and in this case as you said, you specifically don't want to bond, or the monitoring won't work.
 

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This is an isolation transformer specifically for monitoring the secondary side, yes? So you're not changing the voltage - you're not creating a new service. No need to bond, and in this case as you said, you specifically don't want to bond, or the monitoring won't work.
I THINK, his original question had to do with no GEC in the conduit that would bond/ground the frame of the transformer?
 

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I THINK, his original question had to do with no GEC in the conduit that would bond/ground the frame of the transformer?
This is terminology that I don't normally use, so I'm going to try to sort it out. GEC is grounding electrode conductor, I believe. This is the conductor from the grounding rod or whatever, to the service that provides actual grounding (as opposed to bonding). The EGC is the equipment grounding conductor which is the actual bonding conductor that you run with the current-carrying conductors in the conduit or whatever for bonding devices and other equipment.
So, if this transformer is missing a GEC then that would mean that there is no conductor connecting the case of the transformer to a ground (like a metal column or cast iron water line or whatever).

Assuming the above is correct, then I'm totally okay with not having a GEC, because there is an EGC and that should be sufficient, and it means you don't have multiple grounds on the same service (which in the Canuck code we have specific rules against because of ground loops and stuff). Now, there certainly ARE exceptions where worries about static are more important than ground loops, so when wiring gas stations and whatnot you ground every frickin' thing you can find and to hell with ground loops, but in this case, not having looked up the chapter on wiring operating theatres in many years, but remembering vaguely that it at least used to say that in patient care areas an isolated system must not be grounded except through the sensing apparatus, I'm going to say with some certainty that adding a ground to the case of the transformer would be specifically against code here in Canada, at least. This is a specific rule for this specific circumstance (isolated system in a patient care area) and not a rule relating to transformers in general.
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
480v in to xfmr and 208v out. Delta in and Delta out. No grounding on the secondary. The ungrounded delta secondary (208v) powers an OR’s 3 ph panel. The panel has a module in it that monitors the branch circuits leakage to ground, and has an audible alarm when it is over 5ma (I think 2ma in Canada). This is like a GFCI receptacle that doesn’t trip just alarm. The first fault makes the delta corner grounded, no breakers trip, alarm goes off, staff removes equipment causing fault.
Maybe this isn’t an ungrounded separately derived system (250.30B) somehow. I’ve always connected to building steel with every xfmr bigger than a doorbell/control. It’s a 25kva xfmr. I can’t find anything online about xfmr bonding for ungrounded deltas. I feel like the 2nd fault on an ungrounded delta would be the same as the first on a corner grounded delta, and corner grounded deltas have a bond to building steel.
 

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480v in to xfmr and 208v out. Delta in and Delta out. No grounding on the secondary. The ungrounded delta secondary (208v) powers an OR’s 3 ph panel. The panel has a module in it that monitors the branch circuits leakage to ground, and has an audible alarm when it is over 5ma (I think 2ma in Canada). This is like a GFCI receptacle that doesn’t trip just alarm. The first fault makes the delta corner grounded, no breakers trip, alarm goes off, staff removes equipment causing fault.
Maybe this isn’t an ungrounded separately derived system (250.30B) somehow.

Checkout 517.160
 

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I did work at a Nursing home facility in Mt Pleasant after it had been sold. Over 1/3 of the emergency call buttons had not been wired correctly and didn't function. This Facility was over 20 years old and Theoritcly PASSED Inspections every year. What's wrong with this picture?
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
I did work at a Nursing home facility in Mt Pleasant after it had been sold. Over 1/3 of the emergency call buttons had not been wired correctly and didn't function. This Facility was over 20 years old and Theoritcly PASSED Inspections every year. What's wrong with this picture?
Some of the existing nurse call systems require a call to an old folks home, because the old guy living there is the only guy still alive that knows how it works. Seriously.
 

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I’m stuck at trying to understand why there is no building steel, GEC. There actually is a retired inspector I should attempt to contact. A code book wizard.
Try watching this, it explains it. There are more videos, just search Line Isolation
Panel.

 
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I’m stuck at trying to understand why there is no building steel, GEC. There actually is a retired inspector I should attempt to contact. A code book wizard.
It's been over 25 years since I worked in a OR room.

What hasn't been mentioned is that only less than 25 ohms is allowed in an operating room.
you can't get that if you bond an isolation transformer! It's built to be isolated!

There is probably an odd green wire that is on the isolation transformer that's used to
line the room. Physically a continual #6 wire in every stud of every wall of the OR. This wire
can only read less than 25 ohms, this was landed on the ISO Panel.
It might even be unserviceable and while attached not in the guts of the panel.
 
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