Electrician Talk banner
21 - 40 of 52 Posts

·
Registered
Retired EC and Fuel distribution contractor
Joined
·
3,598 Posts
Why old son?
When it is a single disconnect it is allowed to be in the same cabinet with the breakers it supplies. A back fed breaker with a tie down should work.

Tom Horne
I guess I didn't understand this post. What I suggested avoids may I questions and opinions.

I believe that the 2020 requires that the conductors and terminal lugs supplying a Service Disconnecting Means breaker may not share a wiring compartment with any of the breakers it supplies. But that may only apply to exposed busbars and terminals The idea is that there has to be a way to deenergize the entire wiring compartment so that it never has to be worked hot. With a single enclosed double pole breaker that has the new non conductive terminal guards on the Service Entry Conductor termination lugs above your panel You can work in that enclosure with no exposed energized conductors, terminals nor busbars. When you open that breaker then everything in your small panel is deenergized and you don't have to work anything hot. Their is a strong push on from the workman's compensation insurance industry, OSHA, And the electrical industry as a whole to put an end to working hot on any kind of routine tasks.

.......

You could still run the service conductors into the terminal lugs of an appropriately sized double pole breaker and install it using a tie down kit so it could not be removed from the busbar accidentally or from ignorance while energized. I believe that the 2020 edition no longer permits exposed busbars, terminals, or other energized parts to be controlled by a breaker in the same cabinet as the portions of the panel it supplies unless it's supply terminals are in a separate compartment. With a single disconnecting means the inspector may except the terminal lugs of the main breaker as suitably guarded. Is the panel marked as "Suitable for use as service equipment?" If the inspector will except a back fed breaker with a tie down as the Service Disconnecting Means then you should be OK to run the energized service entry conductors into the terminal lugs of a tied down breaker. That will supply the busbars through the tied down breaker's busbar stab clamps and once it was opened it would deenergize everything else in the panel. If the panel is marked as suitable for use as service equipment that would do the job. You would then have to add the breakers for your individual loads.

Tom Horne
 

·
Registered
Electrician
Joined
·
4,464 Posts
This is a temp pole for new construction. It is not a service disconnect, so rules for a disconnect ahead of the panel don't apply. At least where I'm at they don't. This is exactly how I/we set up temp poles (except for the goofy bracing). Just a meterbase, small panel, riser, weatherhead, grounding system (ground rod). Or, if you can find them, a temp box that has the breaker spaces and receptacles made in them, also a meterbase that goes on top.
I'm also at a loss as to what the inspector is talking about unless he/she is talking about the service disconnect that goes on the building at the service. This is not a main service, it is a temp service.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Discussion Starter · #23 ·
Why old son?
When it is a single disconnect it is allowed to be in the same cabinet with the breakers it supplies. A back fed breaker with a tie down should work.

Tom Horne
Thank a lot Tom
I really appreciate all your comments, and it really help me out in this situation. You have a great day and god bless You
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Discussion Starter · #25 ·
This is a temp pole for new construction. It is not a service disconnect, so rules for a disconnect ahead of the panel don't apply. At least where I'm at they don't. This is exactly how I/we set up temp poles (except for the goofy bracing). Just a meterbase, small panel, riser, weatherhead, grounding system (ground rod). Or, if you can find them, a temp box that has the breaker spaces and receptacles made in them, also a meterbase that goes on top.
I'm also at a loss as to what the inspector is talking about unless he/she is talking about the service disconnect that goes on the building at the service. This is not a main service, it is a temp service.
i agree, Thank for your comment
 

·
Gold Pliers Champion
Joined
·
2,952 Posts
Does that load center accept tandems?

If so you could potentially have 12 breaker handles, where there is no single service disco could this be an issue?
I agree with @backstay , the inspector needs to be clear on their ruling when tagging, esp on a service when you're waiting for power.
 

·
Administrator
Retired EC
Joined
·
24,433 Posts
I am surprised you didn't get turned down for the bracing. Here we have to have 2 braces at 90 degrees from each other. Our power company would not hook it up...
 

·
Registered
Electrical contractor 37 years. Electrical inspector 2 years
Joined
·
2,916 Posts
As stated above, a service is a service. Temporary, residential, commercial. Only one disconnect in a panel now. As for back feeding the 100 amp circuit breaker, this might not work. Many MLO panels have ratings for the largest branch circuits or in this case you would be back feeding. It might just be cheaper to replace it with a 100 amp main breaker 12 circuit panel.
The fact that the inspector just listed "service disconnect" now makes you look up in the code book which would help the electrician learn. She could have listed and spelled out what was wrong but would you remember it the next time? Now you are asking questions and looking into the book. I am sure you will remember this.
 

·
Registered
Retired EC and Fuel distribution contractor
Joined
·
3,598 Posts
I was just looking at the pictures again and I have a question. What type of wire is that being used for the service conductors?
 

·
Registered
Retired EC and Fuel distribution contractor
Joined
·
3,598 Posts
Here we would have to use a class 7, 25 foot utility pole for a temporary service.
Even for a construction site with OH PoCo conductors close by? Seems like overkill.
 

·
Can't Remember
Joined
·
10,931 Posts
I'd look at the handbook for what the utility requires for heights, temp pole size and whatever requirements they have for grounding etc. The inspectors remarks are poorly worded as far as the reason for failure. Doesn't absolve you from it, but it certainly could have been more descriptive.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts
I believe your temporary service has a HOM612L100R panel that is capable of having up to 12 circuits, exceeding the 6 circuit rule. You can install a 100 amp back feed breaker in the spot were your existing breaker is with a 1RK retaining clip for the breaker. I was taught that you could potentially add circuitry beyond the 100 amp rating of the buss in your panel the way you have it setup. That never really made sense to me because you could still overload the buss in a 6 circuit main lug panel as well with that logic.
 

·
Administrator
Retired EC
Joined
·
24,433 Posts
I believe your temporary service has a HOM612L100R panel that is capable of having up to 12 circuits, exceeding the 6 circuit rule. You can install a 100 amp back feed breaker in the spot were your existing breaker is with a 1RK retaining clip for the breaker. I was taught that you could potentially add circuitry beyond the 100 amp rating of the buss in your panel the way you have it setup. That never really made sense to me because you could still overload the buss in a 6 circuit main lug panel as well with that logic.

All this changed in 2020. You can no longer have 6 circuits but you need a means to shut off the buss bar which usually means a main breaker panel.
Under the 2017 you could still have a 12 circuit panel as long as you didn't have more than 6 circuits. If someone, at a later date, adds more circuits then it is there responsibility to add a main breaker.
 
21 - 40 of 52 Posts
Top