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Nationally we are denied minimum wage increases, denied universal healthcare, denied universal college, our labor departments have been gutted and twisted by anti-union lawyers.
In short 1. agree, 2. disagree and not a labor issue, 3.disagree and not a labor issue, 4. mostly agree

Regarding the first: I think there should be a minimum wage and it should mostly track with cost of living, though it should probably should have some latitude, it's important that there be an out-of-bounds / bottom limit to wages. Minimum wage in 1981 was $3.35 an hour and it was nothing lavish, not even a living wage, surely we could keep up with that.

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Discussion starter · #22 ·
In short 1. agree, 2. disagree and not a labor issue, 3.disagree and not a labor issue, 4. mostly agree

Regarding the first: I think there should be a minimum wage and it should mostly track with cost of living, though it should probably should have some latitude, it's important that there be an out-of-bounds / bottom limit to wages. Minimum wage in 1981 was $3.35 an hour and it was nothing lavish, not even a living wage, surely we could keep up with that.

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The points I made in the first paragraph were followed up with how my union addresses these shortcomings. I was making a case for market based solutions through union participation.

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When you can destroy a company's reputation and add pressure to there customer base with a simple Facebook post going viral do we really still need union's.
Yes. Because when you in solidarity boycott Budweiser for unfair labor practices everyone switches to Miller. Also owned by the same parent corporation. Monopolization has gone too far unchecked - and the illusion of choice is just that. There isn't a chicken product you can buy in the USA, as well as other packaged or processed or prepared meat products, that isn't owned by Tyson. But only 1/5 of the products are branded as such.
 
Yes. Because when you in solidarity boycott Budweiser for unfair labor practices everyone switches to Miller. Also owned by the same parent corporation. Monopolization has gone too far unchecked - and the illusion of choice is just that. There isn't a chicken product you can buy in the USA, as well as other packaged or processed or prepared meat products, that isn't owned by Tyson. But only 1/5 of the products are branded as such.
I have worked union and non-union.
The last job was in a OJ factory non union. Every year a random group had to go to a interview with major customers to talk about work conditions. They wanted to know if there was any discrimination, Unpaid hours and a bunch of other things as there reputation could be affected by there suppliers reputation.

The few union places i have work the shop stewards seem to be power hungry and cause more of a problem then what they are worth. (old boys network)

Union filled a grievance that new employees in the E&I department were offered free housing for 6 months (it was the only way the company could get new employees to move to the middle of a swamp). Company paid just over a 120k to compensate works that did not get the option of free housing when they started. (money was to be divided and shared to union members)
Union voted to keep the money to fight future grievances. Union rep's got new cars for union business that they could take home.
 
Do you believe investors will keep investing in the U.S. if you keep trying to strong arm them?
What happened to most Americans work for small local business?
It's a big world out there, look what unions did to the U.S. in recent history, look back from the 20s until now, no more made in USA. There are many countries like France that are moving away from socialist policies after seeing the ill effects, and investors are flocking to them leaving the U.S..
Lies, lies, and damned lies. Yes - investors will continue to invest in the US because there exists this thing called a market. 330 million people wanting and needing food, clothing, shelter, and lots and lots of stuff to make it their own. Does Germany, Sweden, Iceland, Norway all other developed countries lack investments? No.

There's no more made in USA because unlike other countries, the USA allows the free import of goods and allows services rendered from other countries like Microsoft customer service and your cable companies customer service to be outsourced with no penalties. Other countries don't allow that.

When we have trade and corporate policies and tax laws that allow corporations to make greater profits, of course they take advantage of it - that does not mean that without those advantages that corporations will shun the USA and take their ball and go elsewhere. McDonalds pays an employee $16.85 an hour in Germany and must provide 4 weeks paid vacation and paid sick time and paid personal days and a YEAR paid maternity leave and the cost of a food item is only slightly higher than it is in the USA, and yet McDonalds still thrives there, and is profitable. Of course they're lobbying the government to allow lower wages, less time off, and for lower food standards, it's a corporation looking to increase profits. But not being successful in getting anything they want is not going to dissuade them from continuing to make what profits they can. Not to mention that a German corporation must have on it's board of directors more than 1/2 actually typical employees of that corporations. Not a board made up of only millionaire investors and friends and relatives in the top 1%. Because of this, when the financial crisis of 2008 lead German car companies to lower wages across the board and give more time off to workers rather than shut down entire factories and let the workers at the bottom suffer the fallout on their own.

You know... the "Christian" thing to do.

Capital is easy to move, easier than it is for workers.
It is, but the market that is 330 million isn't moving anywhere. You're claims amount to "If we don't let corporations exploit us to their heart's content and let them exist tax-free they'll leave." No, they won't. Where are they going to go to, when they're anywhere they want to be now?
I support bettering workers, I support bettering everyone, I don't believe your tact is effective though.
No. Actually you don't. You are pushing the concept that if we don't allow Walmart to increase earnings 1.2 billion through the Covid crisis (thus far) that if laws and regulations and union and worker friendly policies such as living wages and medical care and workplace rules that require their human worker bees to be treated like people with lives and families and pets and homes and needs and desires that the current corporate policies do not currently recognize, that Walmart will shutter and go take their business to some other country. And that is a lie. Walmart knows their business model does not work in foreign countries when they're required to up their standards. Even Target failed in Canada. A carpeted clean Walmart fooled nobody there. 3rd world foreign made junk is still 3rd world foreign made junk.

Americans still fail to grasp the concept of value for the most part, and trend towards quantity over quality. When it comes to things that really matter - as evidenced in many threads right here about how Klein linesmans aren't worth it anymore since production was moved to China or Mexico - or Klein screwdrivers are failing left and right and they're simply profiting from their name and it's past reputation for quality.

Just look for better employers or better yet work for yourself, I live in the rust belt that had a hay day up until about the late 50s with unions, I worked through the IBEW. My opinion, the labor unions in the U.S. are a burden and more to the workers than investors, slowing progress, the better jobs around here are non-union hands down, unions are pretty much dead around here now and no-one is looking back.
Wonderful. Just look for better employers because I'm sure that contractor F isn't competing with contractors A,B,C,D, and E who are all running the same business model of "F the employees, the winner is the guy with the lowest paid workers and the highest billable hours??? " And the problem is just that everyone hasn't yet discovered that the unicorns and rainbows are all over there under contractor F's roof???

If you happen to be in a particularly depressed area then it's likely that economic forces are all in disarray in which case you gotta do what you gotta do - that doesn't mean that unions are the cause or the solution or even play into the issue. But you can't tell me unions don't have a positive impact in the grand scheme of things when nonunion electrician workers who are the top paid guys in their shops and don't make 1/2 what a union Journeyman makes and also have no medical benefits, fringes, or a pension.

I don't believe in banning unions, if you want to be union I believe you should be able to, and the employer be allowed to not agree to a labor agreement, but I don't think they work long term.
The choice to have union representation is the employees. Not the employer's.
 
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How does one organize the illegal immigrants working in construction? I have seen over the last three years more and more work going out to foreign workers. Out of state plates, sneakers or sandels, same clothes every day. Not just Spanish but all back grounds. They are not just the workers but the owners of the company. If the legitimate companies are forced to go union then the illegitimate companies will take over the residential market. Homeowners want cheap.
Policing nonunion worksites isn't in a union's wheelhouse. Unions aren't the problem here, so unions not being able to solve this isn't any reflection on unions. Illegal workers are just that - and illegals working anywhere is a thing society needs to demand the government do something about. But, nonunion companies and those that hire them have many convinced that cheaper illegal labor = lower consumer prices, and this is the lie unions and Americans must combat. America has to start getting serious about real hard jail time for white collar crime - and we're not there yet.

An example here is that everyone knows the landscapers who mow their lawns are illegals. They think, and quite possibly so, that the 40 bucks for weekly maintenance is the benefit, it would be 50 or 60 were they legal... and are fine with it. Massage parlors and Nail salons all over Long Island are constantly being busted for busing Asian women from Flushing Queens who are literally slaves working off their passage debt into the USA and their room and board in overcrowded houses in the city - and yet this is fine with 2 women working 1 hour each on their Mani-Pedi for 29.99 and don't care if their place hasn't been busted... yet.

Americans don't seem to really care about other people's problems, be they countries, or religions, or workplaces or industries... we've disconnected from society at large, and don't really consider other people in our country their "fellow countrymen" and have bought into the "rugged self-made individualism" and "every man for himself" concept. There is most certainly a bunch of I's on this American team. But we're easy targets when we can be picked off one by one. Not when we play as a team. And that is exactly what business owners and corporations want - because when Americans pull together and work for a cause - such as preventing Hedge Funds from tanking GameStop - it scares the living crap out of them. Because as team, we always win.


Has that been working?

Hospitals around here have like half the staff overnight that they had 10-15 years ago for the same or greater patient census. You can paste that on Facebook all day and night, and hospitas won't hire one more nurse.

The Amazon warehouses pay order pickers / packers etc. jack, the conditions are fairly lousy, I don't think Amazon's worried about their worker's posts affecting sales.
Hospitals have been consolidating as well as medical groups, into huge conglomerates and focused regionally. All the efficiencies realized by such actions are taken as profits. This is another aspect of monopolization that the government needs to get involved in.

I think a lot of people are in favor of loose enforcement of immigration laws not because they have big hearts and openly welcome immigrants, but because they like having an exploitable underclass they can underpay and who will hesitate to report their infractions for safety, labor laws, etc.
And a lot of the people actually in favor are the very people leading the anti-immigrant charge - to keep the new people and the displaced people fighting each other... so neither realize the proper direction they should be pointing their torches and pitchforks.

SImilarly, the antifas and the blm and the alt righter and wingnuts too bust fighting and protesting each other also have the same common enemy - I'm waiting for the day of reckoning when these groups finally figure that out.

I have worked union and non-union.
The last job was in a OJ factory non union. Every year a random group had to go to a interview with major customers to talk about work conditions. They wanted to know if there was any discrimination, Unpaid hours and a bunch of other things as there reputation could be affected by there suppliers reputation.

The few union places i have work the shop stewards seem to be power hungry and cause more of a problem then what they are worth. (old boys network)

Union filled a grievance that new employees in the E&I department were offered free housing for 6 months (it was the only way the company could get new employees to move to the middle of a swamp). Company paid just over a 120k to compensate works that did not get the option of free housing when they started. (money was to be divided and shared to union members)
Union voted to keep the money to fight future grievances. Union rep's got new cars for union business that they could take home.
I'll counter all that with without the union all the money would be in the boss's pocket and buys himself and his entire family Mercedes Benz's and vacation homes. Anecdotal examples of the greedy union boss are just that. Greedy company and corporate boss examples are not anecdotal.
 
When you can destroy a company's reputation and add pressure to there customer base with a simple Facebook post going viral do we really still need union's.
Don’t compare a unions accomplishments to an episode of Jerry Springer. Unions help built this nation and definitely helped to form the framework of workers rights.
 
I'll counter all that with without the union all the money would be in the boss's pocket and buys himself and his entire family Mercedes Benz's and vacation homes. Anecdotal examples of the greedy union boss are just that. Greedy company and corporate boss examples are not anecdotal.
Telling me that its ok to be screwed by a union as its better than being screwed by a boss is hardly a selling point because basically im probably going to get screwed either way except one will insist on being payed weekly for the pleasure. Next you will be telling me the union pension plans that turned out to be empty bank accounts was for my own good so i could carry on working and being a member of the brotherhood.

Now we are back to social media. Unions do not have a great reputation so what have you got to offer me that will change my mind. Basically you are in the service sector so you must have some service to sell me. I work for a great company, I get paid above average for my job title, I get good benefits and i get treated with respect.
The union in the UK offered free legal consultation, financial planning and a bunch of other services that made belonging to the Union a worthwhile investment. I do like the apprenticeship program that the union has over here and i believe that is one redeeming quality even if its a bit closed shop on who gets the apprenticeship.

I guess im just lucky as i have never worked for a bad company for more than 10 minutes.
 
Discussion starter · #32 ·
Telling me that its ok to be screwed by a union as its better than being screwed by a boss is hardly a selling point because basically im probably going to get screwed either way except one will insist on being payed weekly for the pleasure. Next you will be telling me the union pension plans that turned out to be empty bank accounts was for my own good so i could carry on working and being a member of the brotherhood.

Now we are back to social media. Unions do not have a great reputation so what have you got to offer me that will change my mind. Basically you are in the service sector so you must have some service to sell me. I work for a great company, I get paid above average for my job title, I get good benefits and i get treated with respect.
The union in the UK offered free legal consultation, financial planning and a bunch of other services that made belonging to the Union a worthwhile investment. I do like the apprenticeship program that the union has over here and i believe that is one redeeming quality even if its a bit closed shop on who gets the apprenticeship.

I guess im just lucky as i have never worked for a bad company for more than 10 minutes.
From my quick search the UK has almost 3x's the membership rate than we do. But you can't compare it apples to apples, european countries while not a monolith, generally have stronger labor protections and privileges. I recall reading about unions building houses for their members back in the day. There is an IBEW local in Nevada or Arizona that founded and staffs an exclusive health clinic for members and close family to cut down on costs.

It's not that these benefits aren't there, or some unions aren't thinking outside of the box, but it's incumbent upon each individual local or union to acquire the resources to do these. I know there's this caricature of the rich, crooked union bosses swindling from dues or retirement accounts, but most are honest and just trying to keep what few members they have, working.

I say tip things back in the favor of the majority of workers. We'll still be the richest nation in the world and we won't turn into a 3rd world country.
 
Telling me that its ok to be screwed by a union as its better than being screwed by a boss is hardly a selling point because basically im probably going to get screwed either way except one will insist on being payed weekly for the pleasure.
No - I'm telling you that an example of a "union done something wrong" is typical overly simplistic anti-union pro-company BS that is short, simple, seems to make sense sans any real analysis, and appeals to the less educated, non-critical thinkers amongst us. Which is why unions seem to have the hardest time getting through to people who hail from areas where education is the worst, and also a good indicator of why in some places education is at it's worst, underfunded, vilified, and always under the gun for budget cuts by the party of corporations and the rich. You know - the South. The ignorant inbred banjo strumming swill swigging duck-calling South where Carharts and Redman and 25 year old pickups held together with bubblegum and spit reign supreme.
Next you will be telling me the union pension plans that turned out to be empty bank accounts was for my own good so i could carry on working and being a member of the brotherhood.
I'm sorry I must've missed that empty pension fund scandal... But I might point out that the nonunion construction worker has absolutely no pension fund at all, so... thanks for reminding us of that. There's also no jury duty pay, or vacation pay usually, just permission to take time off. Oh and how about the time worked past regular hours being overtime rate... and there's no such thing as a short week with an unpaid holiday off being "made up" with a few hours here and there at straight time, that union members get the overtime for all hours worked past 7 or 8, whatever is a normal work day in your local, even if you took the next day off.
Now we are back to social media. Unions do not have a great reputation so what have you got to offer me that will change my mind. Basically you are in the service sector so you must have some service to sell me. I work for a great company, I get paid above average for my job title, I get good benefits and i get treated with respect.
That's funny because everyone I know not in a union wants to be in one. Not saying some people don't have a bug up their arse about unions - and some are not very good, and some are really fake "company unions" created for the express purpose of preventing a real union from representing their employees. But there's a lot of propaganda out there and some are going to believe it, just like some people believe Jewish space lasers caused California wildfires and vaccines cause autism or have microchips in them, or all of it.

As you might see in your quoted text which I did not change but highlighted, there were an awful lot of I 's in there. Which is revealing in that you don't seen to give a crap about other people, your fellow workers, as long as you got yours. You work for a "good company" because they're paying YOU a satisfactory wage. Perhaps they are, or not, but what matters to you seems to be you - so all's right with the world from your perspective. Including the company. Is everyone else there so content there as you seem to be?

Union membership is for too many just a deduction from the paycheck and many who are members are there only by happenstance or habit, not because they sought it out or subscribe to such concepts such as solidarity and collectivism and standing together as one, or understand to power of collective bargaining. After a few years of paying dues and getting raises and tossing out union informational newsletters and meeting minutes they consider junk mail many, even teachers in colleges, think that it's just an unnecessary payroll deduction and those raises were company policy and going to happen with or without the union... and then decide to actively oust it to save a few bucks.

But more people are getting wise.
The union in the UK offered free legal consultation, financial planning and a bunch of other services that made belonging to the Union a worthwhile investment.
We have all that plus legal representation - house closings - and estate planning. But a union local needs to be strong enough and large enough to offer such things.
I do like the apprenticeship program that the union has over here and i believe that is one redeeming quality even if its a bit closed shop on who gets the apprenticeship.

I guess im just lucky as i have never worked for a bad company for more than 10 minutes.
 
I think with all this back and forth with union vs non-union we have to keep in mind we are all imperfect as the systems in place. Everybody has their own experience with a union. I use to think unions were good, and still do, but in my case I got screwed by them. I also see a lot of hypocrisy with them. UNION members can have an electrical license and have a shop on the side while working for a union shop, but I cannot work on a union job?
I just heard that Amazon, one of the richest companies in the world, is fighting the union. Their employees have no benefits, low wages, and high pressure. There is a perfect example of where a union is needed. Ironically when it comes to voting for unionization, Amazon wants voter ID because of voter fraud.
 
I am not absolving unions of all wrongdoing, I have seen some really over the top BS. One thing I see as a major problem, corporations probably conceded a little too much when things were booming and the rest of the developed world was rebuilding after WWII. They entered into contracts that would not be sustainable. Hindsight is 20/20, but if unions had made some concessions, and the federal regulators had put stronger incentives in place to keep production in the US, some of our hardest hit industries (steel, automotive, rail transport) would still be kicking ass today.
 
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Mass unionization could help alleviate the societal stresses we are experiencing and raise everyone's standard of living and it would still incentivize WORK.
That's really close to Bolshevism. We can't incentivize work through force, especially when that comes from the government. Work does not make us free.

The indoctrination in upper level education is where most of these ideas really effect a country, and those people don't intend to work in the industrial base of old. They don't want to be industrial workers like their grandparents or older generations. They want the new world de-industrialized first. Their solutions would hopefully come later, but we don't really know what that would look like in order to maintain or even improve standards of living for the poor and middle classes.

If you lay the working classes from the past which benefitted the most from unions against the working class that the unions are trying to rope in today you will see a very different class structure.

The working class of old when the movement gained enough steam to basically overthrow an entire country's government were very poor industrial workers. The countries that really need unionizing for rights, even basic human rights, are the biggest industrial nations in the far east and even Africa, but they are already under Communist/Socialist/Fascist rule and may not put aside their caste systems.

I've seen unions work for some people and classes, but unionizing everything is just creating a Communist government.
 
If a state minimum wage is higher than federal then do federal worker in that state get state or federal minimum.
Federal workers are classed by wage grade (WG) and other civil servant grades (GS/GG). There are a few others, and depending on the series code may be eligible to join a bargaining group (union). OPM will delineate which classes of Federal workers get Federal minimum wage and which get wage grade, which is generally higher hourly for blue collar positions vs. hourly white collar positions. Federal contracts pay prevailing wages, whether union or not, but since trades are generally unionized nationwide, they get the jobs. It helps if the company falls under a JWOD group, as well.

Federal Wage System Overview
 
If a state minimum wage is higher than federal then do federal worker in that state get state or federal minimum.
I believe that the employer will be required to comply with both federal and state minimum wage laws, so the effective minimum is the HIGHER of the two minimum wages.

However, the federal government considers itself exempt from state minimum wage requirements (see attachment):

State and local government minimum wage laws are not binding on the Federal Government and its component agencies since, under the preemption doctrine which originates from the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution, Federal law supersedes conflicting State law. (See U.S. Const. Art. VI. cl. 2.) This is the case when Federal employee pay rates are specifically fixed under Federal law (e.g., GS employees) and when Federal agencies are given discretion in setting rates of pay under Federal law.
 

Attachments

I think with all this back and forth with union vs non-union we have to keep in mind we are all imperfect as the systems in place. Everybody has their own experience with a union. I use to think unions were good, and still do, but in my case I got screwed by them. I also see a lot of hypocrisy with them. UNION members can have an electrical license and have a shop on the side while working for a union shop, but I cannot work on a union job?
I just heard that Amazon, one of the richest companies in the world, is fighting the union. Their employees have no benefits, low wages, and high pressure. There is a perfect example of where a union is needed. Ironically when it comes to voting for unionization, Amazon wants voter ID because of voter fraud.
Own a nonunion electrical shop on the side and work as a union member? No. That would not be allowed unless the member was working hand in hand with the union to build a union shop, or cut into the market share of nonunion employers or some tactic or program. You cannot work on a union job as a nonunion worker unless the union cannot provide the shop with the labor it needs - but then you have to be represented by the union, get paid union scale, follow the contract, and enjoy the union benefits, without joining.

Yea, Amazon, in Alabama no less, is experiencing some labor strife as an entire distribution center is fed up with them. The NLRB just ruled the vote will happen, in Alabama no less. Who'da thunk it? And considering the state of this union it will be interesting to see how this plays out, because if Amazon pushes too hard it could be just the catalyst needed for this new trend of mass-organization being pushed lately... I suspect Amazon will just let it happen and then slowly divert orders shipped from that warehouse to others until it's closed.

I am not absolving unions of all wrongdoing, I have seen some really over the top BS. One thing I see as a major problem, corporations probably conceded a little too much when things were booming and the rest of the developed world was rebuilding after WWII. They entered into contracts that would not be sustainable. Hindsight is 20/20, but if unions had made some concessions, and the federal regulators had put stronger incentives in place to keep production in the US, some of our hardest hit industries (steel, automotive, rail transport) would still be kicking ass today.
That's one way to look at it, but it's also the corporate fallacy that contracts were not sustainable or that contracts were too generous. Rail transport was not destroyed by unions. Rail workers didn't have gold toilet bowls. Concessions means workers shouldn't get decent wages, decent standards of living, medical coverage and pensions. Somehow though, CEOs could go from 7X the average worker pay to 70,000 times the average worker pay and nobody seems to have a problem with that.

The automotive industry in America was always profitable, save for some gaffs, attempts to really cheapen the costs of production and design to the point where premature failure was all but guaranteed - but that was an attempt to INCREASE profits. Moving to nonunion states was also an attempt to increase profits. Moving to Mexico was another. What's wrong with constant, consistant profits? It's not enough for psychopathic investors to make money, it always has to be more money. Why is it the American worker and family must suffer for the excesses of the 1%? Unions are greedy? Bad. Corporations are greedy? Good. How did that happen?

I believe that the employer will be required to comply with both federal and state minimum wage laws, so the effective minimum is the HIGHER of the two minimum wages.

However, the federal government considers itself exempt from state minimum wage requirements (see attachment):
Ah, yes. The good old Supremacy Clause. This is also why we are not bound by the NEC in any given state.
Thing is, the Federal government doesn't employ minimum wage lever workers. The Fed employs geologists, annalists, researchers, scientists, medical and industry and trade experts... there's no Federal McDonald's or .99 cent stores.
 
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