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That's really close to Bolshevism. We can't incentivize work through force, especially when that comes from the government. Work does not make us free.

The indoctrination in upper level education is where most of these ideas really effect a country, and those people don't intend to work in the industrial base of old. They don't want to be industrial workers like their grandparents or older generations. They want the new world de-industrialized first. Their solutions would hopefully come later, but we don't really know what that would look like in order to maintain or even improve standards of living for the poor and middle classes.

If you lay the working classes from the past which benefitted the most from unions against the working class that the unions are trying to rope in today you will see a very different class structure.

The working class of old when the movement gained enough steam to basically overthrow an entire country's government were very poor industrial workers. The countries that really need unionizing for rights, even basic human rights, are the biggest industrial nations in the far east and even Africa, but they are already under Communist/Socialist/Fascist rule and may not put aside their caste systems.

I've seen unions work for some people and classes, but unionizing everything is just creating a Communist government.
"They don't want industrial jobs?" No... the industrial and blue collar working class factory jobs left because our trade policies allowed it, and our tax policies allowed it and even encouraged it. This left us a glut of workers who had no choice but to shoot for higher education and higher skilled white collar jobs, for which there will never be enough - driving down the price of educated white collar workers and driving up the cost of college education.

Most of the problems in the USA can be tracked back to the free trade agreements, and the lack of employment opportunities. Free trade works when we make cars and dimensional lumber and wallpaper and computer chips, and they make sheetrock and have bananas and oil and clothing. We need some of their stuff, they need some of our stuff. Free trade does not work when they make everything and we pay them for it and they want nothing from us but a receipt.
 
Own a nonunion electrical shop on the side and work as a union member? No. That would not be allowed unless the member was working hand in hand with the union to build a union shop, or cut into the market share of nonunion employers or some tactic or program. You cannot work on a union job as a nonunion worker unless the union cannot provide the shop with the labor it needs - but then you have to be represented by the union, get paid union scale, follow the contract, and enjoy the union benefits, without joining.

Yea, Amazon, in Alabama no less, is experiencing some labor strife as an entire distribution center is fed up with them. The NLRB just ruled the vote will happen, in Alabama no less. Who'da thunk it? And considering the state of this union it will be interesting to see how this plays out, because if Amazon pushes too hard it could be just the catalyst needed for this new trend of mass-organization being pushed lately... I suspect Amazon will just let it happen and then slowly divert orders shipped from that warehouse to others until it's closed.



That's one way to look at it, but it's also the corporate fallacy that contracts were not sustainable or that contracts were too generous. Rail transport was not destroyed by unions. Rail workers didn't have gold toilet bowls. Concessions means workers shouldn't get decent wages, decent standards of living, medical coverage and pensions. Somehow though, CEOs could go from 7X the average worker pay to 70,000 times the average worker pay and nobody seems to have a problem with that.

The automotive industry in America was always profitable, save for some gaffs, attempts to really cheapen the costs of production and design to the point where premature failure was all but guaranteed - but that was an attempt to INCREASE profits. Moving to nonunion states was also an attempt to increase profits. Moving to Mexico was another. What's wrong with constant, consistant profits? It's not enough for psychopathic investors to make money, it always has to be more money. Why is it the American worker and family must suffer for the excesses of the 1%? Unions are greedy? Bad. Corporations are greedy? Good. How did that happen?




Thing is, the Federal government doesn't employ minimum wage lever workers. The Fed employs geologists, annalists, researchers, scientists, medical and industry and trade experts... there's no Federal McDonald's or .99 cent stores.
I take it you are from Long Island, NY. Last year I was trying to rent out a small office on a main road. We had 7 people inquire about it . One was a psychic. Two were used car dealers. Two local 3 electricians. One local 25 electrician. One retired local 3 electrician. I decided to put my shop in there and not rent it out.
 
I take it you are from Long Island, NY. Last year I was trying to rent out a small office on a main road. We had 7 people inquire about it . One was a psychic. Two were used car dealers. Two local 3 electricians. One local 25 electrician. One retired local 3 electrician. I decided to put my shop in there and not rent it out.
And this is your response to this?
Own a nonunion electrical shop on the side and work as a union member? No. That would not be allowed unless the member was working hand in hand with the union to build a union shop, or cut into the market share of nonunion employers or some tactic or program.
 
Thing is, the Federal government doesn't employ minimum wage lever workers. The Fed employs geologists, annalists, researchers, scientists, medical and industry and trade experts... there's no Federal McDonald's or .99 cent stores.
They generally don't, but a quick search of USA Jobs (especially right before the summer season) will show a lot of openings for Youth Program workers which are at minimum wage for the states the jobs are located in. The commissary store workers all generally start out at the prevailing (minimum) wage as well. Those are indeed Federal jobs, but no, not at Federal minimum wage.

I don't even know what the purpose of a Federal minimum wage is.

Today's listing of minimum wage Federal jobs on USA Jobs.
 
"They don't want industrial jobs?" No... the industrial and blue collar working class factory jobs left because our trade policies allowed it, and our tax policies allowed it and even encouraged it. This left us a glut of workers who had no choice but to shoot for higher education and higher skilled white collar jobs, for which there will never be enough - driving down the price of educated white collar workers and driving up the cost of college education.

Most of the problems in the USA can be tracked back to the free trade agreements, and the lack of employment opportunities. Free trade works when we make cars and dimensional lumber and wallpaper and computer chips, and they make sheetrock and have bananas and oil and clothing. We need some of their stuff, they need some of our stuff. Free trade does not work when they make everything and we pay them for it and they want nothing from us but a receipt.
You're right, I agree. We need to have jobs before we can hire people. We need people to want to work. We can unionize all we want but if the government policies keep screwing us as a whole, we're going to be highly qualified blue collar out of work(ers).

I don't think we're going to see a lot of headway on this over the next four years, either. Unless the Biden administration has figured out the solution to the Solyndra problem we really can't see a way forward. And, it's not just him and his staff. there are 535 other a$$holes in just the Federal Congress who need to get their acts together, literally.

People in the US are going to want to maintain their lifestyles, good or bad, while moving "forward". I don't see taking down the upper-middle class (which includes a lot of union workers) and regular upper class as a means to an end. I do wish that the super-rich would actually invest in American businesses again, but there's that government regulation thing again where the Socialists in government want to take, and we all know that Socialism works out until we run out of other people's money to spend. I don't want to tell Bill Gates how to spend his money...it's the same system I've been privileged enough to live in...I had my chance, he had his...he did it much better, good for him.

Do we really push for globalism? Do we really want all of the workers of the world to unite? Against who? Isn't that what governments wanted with free trade, in part...to unite all workers with no boundaries?

How do we encourage the lazy to want to work? We apparently failed at instilling the desire at a young age somewhere along the line for a lot of American youth.
 
Discussion starter · #46 ·
How do we encourage the lazy to want to work? We apparently failed at instilling the desire at a young age somewhere along the line for a lot of American youth.
Hard work isn't guaranteed to pay in the United States because we don't believe it should. You need to do more than just work hard. Young workers are capitalists just like you. It doesn't make sense for them to invest time and resources into jobs with weak returns.
 
You're right, I agree. We need to have jobs before we can hire people. We need people to want to work. We can unionize all we want but if the government policies keep screwing us as a whole, we're going to be highly qualified blue collar out of work(ers).
Are you under the impression people don't want to work? 5000 apprentice hopefuls who want into our local disagree. Back in the day, I'd hit up a 7-11 or a Dunkin on the regular... and over the months and years a regular parade of clerks parading through these low wage "McJobs." And that was fine. Since the 90's, I've seen the same people making careers out of this. Same people there for years. Not by choice - it's a reflection of the jobs market.
I don't think we're going to see a lot of headway on this over the next four years, either. Unless the Biden administration has figured out the solution to the Solyndra problem we really can't see a way forward. And, it's not just him and his staff. there are 535 other a$$holes in just the Federal Congress who need to get their acts together, literally.
Solyndra problem?
People in the US are going to want to maintain their lifestyles, good or bad, while moving "forward". I don't see taking down the upper-middle class (which includes a lot of union workers) and regular upper class as a means to an end. I do wish that the super-rich would actually invest in American businesses again, but there's that government regulation thing again where the Socialists in government want to take, and we all know that Socialism works out until we run out of other people's money to spend. I don't want to tell Bill Gates how to spend his money...it's the same system I've been privileged enough to live in...I had my chance, he had his...he did it much better, good for him.
Maintain their lifestyles? No, the point is for Americans to better their lifestyles. You seem to be of the delusion the problem is people don't want to work for what they want - and want it handed to them - possibly by those in the class above them. That's not the solution being proposed. This isn't about robin-hooding by the government, it's about reversing the robber baron mentality and business model corporations follow these days. I could go on point by point but it's nothing you've never heard before. America must stop the import of goods from foreign countries. Not tariff. And not all goods.

Were we to produce our own durable goods - thousands of factories would have to start up in the US. We need to have the tenacity and fortitude and redirect our empathy within our own borders. Let Germany, Mexico, China, Japan, and the Philippines take care of themselves. The counter argument to this is that corporations would charge more because the increased cost of labor - but that assumes corporations would demand the same profits from products produced by 40 dollar an hour workers making the same products and the 2 dollar an hour workers. But the reality is that they're already charging the highest prices the market can bear, and the fact that an F-150 is 70,000.00 is proof of that. Made in Mexico. Other proof is the wildly excessive profits we're seeing in the market. Yes I said it, is that a bad word? It is to workers - Americans, because when corporations profit far and above it's because the workers did not get a share of the production gains. And the consumers sure as hell aren't seeing lower prices.

Do we really push for globalism? Do we really want all of the workers of the world to unite? Against who? Isn't that what governments wanted with free trade, in part...to unite all workers with no boundaries?
Globalism? That is pushed by the the 1%. Globalism is the corporation buying low from Honduras and selling high to the USA. Governments didn't want free trade to unite workers. Where do you get this stuff? What do you have some bottomless ass you pull this crap out of?
How do we encourage the lazy to want to work? We apparently failed at instilling the desire at a young age somewhere along the line for a lot of American youth.
The only lazy people presenting any problem are the ones sitting on gold toilets counting their dividends.
 
Are you under the impression people don't want to work? 5000 apprentice hopefuls who want into our local disagree. Back in the day, I'd hit up a 7-11 or a Dunkin on the regular... and over the months and years a regular parade of clerks parading through these low wage "McJobs." And that was fine. Since the 90's, I've seen the same people making careers out of this. Same people there for years. Not by choice - it's a reflection of the jobs market.
Nothing I say is an infinitive, except for the beginning of this sentence. Please understand that I am not 100% against what many on this forum are saying. Obviously everyone in the US needs to work together, better at least.

A lot of people don't want to work, as in, outdoors sweating, toiling, getting dirty and making minimum wage such as a field worker/picker or even outdoors working in the ice and snow. It might be indoors getting hot, sweaty, greasy...processing chicken or beef. I know I didn't like it when I was a kid, cleaning up meat processing areas at the end of the day! I knew I didn't want to do that for the any longer than I had to!

A lot might be 10% of the working population or it might be 50%...we don't really know. It depends on who one listens to. We might complain about 9% unemployment in Hawai'i while South Dakota complains about 3%. It's relative.

A lot of people want robots and people who are willing to work for very little pay to do their dirty work.

Solyndra problem?
I'm using that as an example of what Biden hopes to accomplish with shutting down XL and saying solar and wind are where he is going to create jobs. Solyndra as in the failed solar energy plant/company. Biden was the VP under Obama...come on, man...you have to remember that! It's the type of new jobs that President Biden is saying that the XL would have provided for.

Maintain their lifestyles? No, the point is for Americans to better their lifestyles. You seem to be of the delusion the problem is people don't want to work for what they want - and want it handed to them - possibly by those in the class above them. That's not the solution being proposed. This isn't about robin-hooding by the government, it's about reversing the robber baron mentality and business model corporations follow these days. I could go on point by point but it's nothing you've never heard before. America must stop the import of goods from foreign countries. Not tariff. And not all goods.
Yes...better their lifestyles...that is more accurate. But, if they can't even maintain their lifestyles, bettering is even less of an option.

Were we to produce our own durable goods - thousands of factories would have to start up in the US. We need to have the tenacity and fortitude and redirect our empathy within our own borders. Let Germany, Mexico, China, Japan, and the Philippines take care of themselves. The counter argument to this is that corporations would charge more because the increased cost of labor - but that assumes corporations would demand the same profits from products produced by 40 dollar an hour workers making the same products and the 2 dollar an hour workers. But the reality is that they're already charging the highest prices the market can bear, and the fact that an F-150 is 70,000.00 is proof of that. Made in Mexico. Other proof is the wildly excessive profits we're seeing in the market. Yes I said it, is that a bad word? It is to workers - Americans, because when corporations profit far and above it's because the workers did not get a share of the production gains. And the consumers sure as hell aren't seeing lower prices.
That paragraph is pretty good. What you describe is part of what I was saying earlier about my own family. My cousin lost her job at the Ford plant in Michigan a few years ago, around the same time that American Axle closed up shop in Hamtramck. Those jobs went to Mexico as well. The UAW saw pay drop from $45 to $30 according to that article, and they still closed the entire factory and moved it.

I wonder if those workers want to move to Mexico to follow those jobs, like the XL workers are expected to pull up roots to move to wherever the work is.

And Ford made record profits before, during, and after the 2008 crunch and then killed jobs while doing it. There are your gold-plated toilets.

Trust me, I see what you are talking about.

Globalism? That is pushed by the the 1%. Globalism is the corporation buying low from Honduras and selling high to the USA. Governments didn't want free trade to unite workers. Where do you get this stuff? What do you have some bottomless ass you pull this crap out of?
I pull that crap out of the European Union which the UK is hopefully extracting itself from. This isn't made up...it's happening all over the world, ergo: globalism.
 
Globalism? That is pushed by the the 1%. Globalism is the corporation buying low from Honduras and selling high to the USA. Governments didn't want free trade to unite workers. Where do you get this stuff? What do you have some bottomless ass you pull this crap out of?
Maybe you should join the EFBWW and tell them they're all a bunch of elitist snob 1%'rs. Show them what Marxism is all about. I'm sure the Europeans can learn from you. :D
 
Solyndra, Isn't that the $750 million failed solar panel plant that was obsolete before the built it? What about the Buffalo Billion? The $980 million solar panel plant that NY State funded up in Buffalo, NY. It went belly up and Tesla took it over. A lot of the green energy stuff cannot be built in this country because of the pollution standards. Especially batteries.
 
Yeah...we could do it in the US, it just wouldn't be financially viable. The projects would need huge government subsidies, giant unions, and a lot of other peoples' money (which would make other people multi-millionaires) and help people stay at minimum wage, just like the good old days. Be happy! You have a job...and owe your soul to the company store.
 
Nothing I say is an infinitive, except for the beginning of this sentence. Please understand that I am not 100% against what many on this forum are saying. Obviously everyone in the US needs to work together, better at least.

A lot of people don't want to work, as in, outdoors sweating, toiling, getting dirty and making minimum wage such as a field worker/picker or even outdoors working in the ice and snow. It might be indoors getting hot, sweaty, greasy...processing chicken or beef. I know I didn't like it when I was a kid, cleaning up meat processing areas at the end of the day! I knew I didn't want to do that for the any longer than I had to!
No no no... a lot of people don't want to work in shitty jobs under shitty conditions with fast moving conveyors and production quotas in stinky unsafe environments, or... outdoors in the blazing sun tarring roofs or... swinging hammers on newly framed houses or... mowing lawns and raking leaves or... repointing buildings... (drumroll please) FOR PEANUTS.

Every man has his price and any American will do any work that is available they are physically capable of doing - but not for **** wages and no benefits and all while being treated like a bastard readheaded stepchild. Back in the day a butcher was in every grocery store - who cut the meat and packaged it - and for other stores there were the meatpackers union - those were not great jobs, but you could earn a living and raise a family and pay the mortgage... There was no shortage of applicants for those good paying union jobs. Now it's the immigrants where Tyson put ads in Mexican newspapers for poultry, beef and pork process workers. Owning 85% of the packaged and distributed meat market in the US.

Just like there's a growing income gap between the top mamagement and the middle working class, there's an ever widening income gap between the middle class and the blue collar class. Time was Bert the cop, Ernie the cab driver, and George the banker were birds of a feather... now the wages on blue collar skilled and unskilled work has remained flat since the 70's, has fallen well behind the inflation curve, and the conditions of more production demanded, and the "internalize profits, externalize liabilities" edict has making working in those positions even less attractive as people take those jobs simply because they have to. Oftentimes, because their worker status is "sketchy" and requires a degree of "plausible deniability."

Why do you think all these posters here are proudly showing off their collection of battery powered sawzalls, porta-bands, and hammer drills, threaders and grinders and impact guns? When the hell did the nonunion sector go from hiring employees with hand tools to requiring them to provide the power tools as well? When did roofers go from wearing company issued jumpsuits to wearing throwaway clothes purchases at the Goodwill?

If we as a country are to "globalize" exactly what is that supposed to mean? That all workers become disposable chattle owning nothing, entitled to nothing but the bare minimum in order to go home, wake up the next day ready to do it all again, with zero hope or chance of bettering themselves and their families lives, and no extra for eating out, a vacation or two, a nice car, sending a kid to college, proper medical care... while the company owners and corporate investors live like kings? Because that's where we are headed.

A lot might be 10% of the working population or it might be 50%...we don't really know. It depends on who one listens to. We might complain about 9% unemployment in Hawai'i while South Dakota complains about 3%. It's relative.

A lot of people want robots and people who are willing to work for very little pay to do their dirty work.
What makes you think unemployment is the result of worker laziness? A lot of people want to save a buck - and have to, they've no choice. People hire handymen from Craigslist to fix the receptacle because calling a real contractor is out of the question, financially. But a lot of people want to pay very little to do the dirty work because they can get away with it. It's a business model. And when you're competing with others following that model, it's almost impossible not to whether you want to or not. This is known as the race to the bottom. Exploiting labor is going to happen when the conditions are set for it to happen, and it's never off the table when a corporation legally cares about one thing only- the bottom line.

What makes it possible in the USA? Lax labor laws and standards and lack of funding the ones you do have. Who pushes for these things? Lack of worker education in our schools and education on labor law and employees rights - who pushes for that? Laws that stop or prevent of make unions financially possible or viable- who is out there advocating for that under the guise of "protecting workers rights to not have to pay union dues?"

What else make exploitation possible? Having a glut of workers in the USA. A shortage of jobs drives down wages. Who demands a raise when the overall feeling is you're lucky to even have a job? Open 500 factories in the US employing 1000 each and suddenly Target, the trucking company, the roofing company, and Starbucks and McDonalds isn't the primary employer in town... and competition for labor goes up - employees are seen as a much needed asset instead of a disposable, devalued commodity.
I'm using that as an example of what Biden hopes to accomplish with shutting down XL and saying solar and wind are where he is going to create jobs. Solyndra as in the failed solar energy plant/company. Biden was the VP under Obama...come on, man...you have to remember that! It's the type of new jobs that President Biden is saying that the XL would have provided for.
OK I see what you're referring to, but not what point you're trying to make. Solyndra was but one small failure of a program that was implemented which the right wouldn't stop crowing about and it was used to paint the entire green movement as an abject failure. Green energy isn't a question of if, it is a question of when. And subsidizing the oil industry and allowing for the construction of pipelines to further the reach of the oil industry is the antithesis of the direction we should be headed.
Yes...better their lifestyles...that is more accurate. But, if they can't even maintain their lifestyles, bettering is even less of an option.
True, and the banking industry was right there to cash in on the dysfunction and lend for college and lend for houses demanding the government drop those pesky regulations like proving income and ability to pay and no more of that 25% of gross income to house payment garbage... so that Americans could fool themselves into their lifestyle by getting into perpetual debt. And then fool American investors into purchasing commodities like safe AAA rated bonds of mortgage debt that the mortgagees proved their value and stability by making all of 3 on-time payments... until that came crashing down.

Now who pushed for easing all those different banking ans investment regulations to make all that possible? Where did all the money go?
That paragraph is pretty good. What you describe is part of what I was saying earlier about my own family. My cousin lost her job at the Ford plant in Michigan a few years ago, around the same time that American Axle closed up shop in Hamtramck. Those jobs went to Mexico as well. The UAW saw pay drop from $45 to $30 according to that article, and they still closed the entire factory and moved it.

I wonder if those workers want to move to Mexico to follow those jobs, like the XL workers are expected to pull up roots to move to wherever the work is.
Sorry for the XL workers but, if you want to make an omlet you have to crack some eggs. If we stop importing and make our own durable goods, there's going to be a lot of job losses at the ports and in trucking too... But you are taking a tiny bit of bad news and using it to decry the overall betterment of everyone in the country - a typical right wing tactic. Nobody has a solution that will have no bad effects on somebody, if that's what you need to go along with a national policy I'm afraid you are never going to be satisfied with anything the government ever does. And maybe that's the position you want to be in.
And Ford made record profits before, during, and after the 2008 crunch and then killed jobs while doing it. There are your gold-plated toilets.

Trust me, I see what you are talking about.
Just because a company makes record profits doesn't mean they're satisfied. Joe and the dems are going to have to get on the ball on a lot of different issues, monopolization is another one. And it's clear neither he nor the current dem party is interested in too much progress, too radical of an idea, or making too many waves. It's typical the dems want to stop the right wing carnage against the non-1%, but I don't see them pushing for fixing any of the damage already done, or reversing course.


I pull that crap out of the European Union which the UK is hopefully extracting itself from. This isn't made up...it's happening all over the world, ergo: globalism.
Pretty sure the UK is pulling out to implement even more vulture capitalism, If I'm wrong I hope so.
 
European countries have done a better job balancing capital with protections. Sectoral bargaining would cross state lines, and cover entire industries (sectors).

Unions were most successful in now-stagnating or shrinking industries like manufacturing and transportation; investors are less willing to put money into firms where unions capture some of their profits; and unions increase labor costs for employers, who respond by hiring fewer workers. Western and Farber found that unionized firms’ slower growth accounted for most of the decline in union membership between the 1970s and ’90s.

But workers in most European countries, and some other rich countries outside the US, have figured out an ingenious way around this. Unions there bargain not at the company level but at the sector level — negotiating for all workers in an entire industry rather than just one company or workplace.



Unions were only ever able to gain a foothold in the US because we legally protected their status. Before that many union members were prosecuted as criminal conspirators. Yes, the old way of collective bargaining in the US is outdated, so lets update the way the US organizes.

What's interesting is that many European countries do not have federal minimum wages, because the unions set the minimum wages for their industries.
I don't believe you read the entire article you posted, here is a huge highlight you left out

a significant share of sectoral contracts in France specify minimum wages lower than France’s legal minimum, meaning they have no practical effect.
LOL

 
If Amazon is such a terrible place to work then why do so many people willingly work there? Why did they leave their old job for Amazon, Amazon has not been around very long.
Why don't they start their own small business and pay themselves as much as they want hourly and with as great of benefits as they want? I mean by the way you all talk, business owners and investors wipe their a$$es with 100's so why don't they start a business or start investing? Why are they all on $1,000 phones, paying ridiculous monthly phone bills to play candy crush, paying for netflix or cable out the nose......

Why don't they just save some of that wasted money and invest it, I mean the way you all describe it business owners and investors just put money in a machine and get 2x back every time while they are just sitting on the beach in tahiti, why don't whining workers just do that if it is so easy for owners and investors?

I have a theory, because people like you lie to them and tell them that they are victims, that it doesn't matter how hard they try, the system is rigged against them, that their only hope is a politician or union boss.

ANY one, ANY person in the United States of America has the opportunity for a great life, without anyone coming to save them, all on their own.

But ANYONE that listens to this victim, zero sum mindset bull$hit you are spreading, will be miserable bums no matter what you give them. There's no shining knight, no one is coming to save you, just get off your ass and use your head.
 
Discussion starter · #56 ·
I don't believe you read the entire article you posted, here is a huge highlight you left out



LOL

That doesn't detract from my point. Sweden, Germany and Italy don't have federal minimum wages. We need a better deal for Americans.

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That doesn't detract from my point. Sweden, Germany and Italy don't have federal minimum wages. We need a better deal for Americans.

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We have the better deal already

Median annual wages
Sweden 60k minus 57% income tax and mandated union dues
Germany 70k minus mandated union dues and higher taxes
Italy 54k
U.S. 69k, no union dues, lower taxes and this includes far more immigrants coming from third world countries

Do you really believe your grievance is anything more than "there are rich people in the U.S. and somehow that isn't fair because everyone isn't rich"?

Sincerely, that is all I see from your stance.

The U.S. isn't perfect, but it's the best system there is. Changes, no matter how well intentioned, don't always deliver what's desired. Check the bath water for the baby before you throw it out.
 
Discussion starter · #58 ·
If Amazon is such a terrible place to work then why do so many people willingly work there? Why did they leave their old job for Amazon, Amazon has not been around very long.
Why don't they start their own small business and pay themselves as much as they want hourly and with as great of benefits as they want? I mean by the way you all talk, business owners and investors wipe their a$$es with 100's so why don't they start a business or start investing? Why are they all on $1,000 phones, paying ridiculous monthly phone bills to play candy crush, paying for netflix or cable out the nose......

Why don't they just save some of that wasted money and invest it, I mean the way you all describe it business owners and investors just put money in a machine and get 2x back every time while they are just sitting on the beach in tahiti, why don't whining workers just do that if it is so easy for owners and investors?

I have a theory, because people like you lie to them and tell them that they are victims, that it doesn't matter how hard they try, the system is rigged against them, that their only hope is a politician or union boss.

ANY one, ANY person in the United States of America has the opportunity for a great life, without anyone coming to save them, all on their own.

But ANYONE that listens to this victim, zero sum mindset bull$hit you are spreading, will be miserable bums no matter what you give them. There's no shining knight, no one is coming to save you, just get off your ass and use your head.
We got trump because of that gaslighting mindset. America isn't better for it, the country is very sick and more right wing rugged individualism won't fix it. FDR didn't pass the new deal because he was a socialist, he passed it to cull the growing socialist movement in the US.

My wife started her business out of necessity. Quality childcare was too expensive, part time work was too low paying, social security will not be enough to survive on. We took the risk out of desperation, not some entrepreneurial spirit.

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We got trump because of that gaslighting mindset. America isn't better for it, the country is very sick and more right wing rugged individualism won't fix it. FDR didn't pass the new deal because he was a socialist, he passed it to cull the growing socialist movement in the US.

My wife started her business out of necessity. Quality childcare was too expensive, part time work was too low paying, social security is not enough to survive on. We took the risk out of desperation, not some entrepreneurial spirit.

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Do you believe what investors and business people do is valuable? Do you believe it is in higher demand (compensation wise) than labor? Do you believe bureaucrats would be better at determining what we invest in?

We got the America we have today because of the get off your ass and use your head mindset, the risk and reward free market, not the play the victim and hold your hand out and just whine until someone else saves you, with that attitude no one does anything but sit around an whine, while the thinkers(investors and business people), the leaders, the type of people that have led us to the best time in the history of man find people that will follow them to a brighter future.

Before the term "employee" we called it servant or slave, you are a follower to a large extent of your employer, you are choosing to follow another man, you can lead yourself but you are choosing to follow another man. Where your system breaks down is you want to disenfranchise your leader(s), they are your leaders because they are better at it, otherwise why are you following them? Quit following them and lead yourself and others if you would be better than them.
 
Discussion starter · #60 ·
Do you believe what investors and business people do is valuable? Do you believe it is in higher demand (compensation wise) than labor? Do you believe bureaucrats would be better at determining what we invest in?

We got the America we have today because of the get off your ass and use your head mindset, the risk and reward free market, not the play the victim and hold your hand out and just whine until someone else saves you, with that attitude no one does anything but sit around an whine, while the thinkers(investors and business people), the leaders, the type of people that have led us to the best time in the history of man find people that will follow them to a brighter future.

Before the term "employee" we called it servant or slave, you are a follower to a large extent of your employer, you are choosing to follow another man, you can lead yourself but you are choosing to follow another man. Where your system breaks down is you want to disenfranchise your leader(s), they are your leaders because they are better at it, otherwise why are you following them? Quit following them and lead yourself and others if you would be better than them.
I don't understand how you conflate stronger union protections with "leader" disenfranchisement. What I'm advocating for is the broadening and strengthening union protections and privileges closer to what they used to be. In this scenario unions are still a market mechanism. People that sign up are literally paying to have somebody advocate and negotiate on their behalf. That's not holding your hand out (unless you're a free-rider in a right to work state) waiting for someone to save you.

I've watched folks on here argue about the minimum wage, that's why I brought up the fact many of the countries with more union participation don't bother to have them. I see no irony in that despite how low union participation is in Florida, they just voted itself a $15 minimum wage.

Having stronger unions is not going to discourage entrepreneurship, or stop leaders from leading, it never has, and never will.
 
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