Remotely Operated Breakers

1127 Views 22 Replies 12 Participants Last post by CraziFuzzy, 11 d ago

99cents

Discussion Starter · 14 d ago

We are nearing completion of a 6000 square foot retail store. My switchgear arrived a couple of weeks ago and I really didn’t know what to expect. All the circuits in my lighting panel and HVAC circuits in other panels use remotely operated breakers. They are essentially standard breakers with a switch that turns the circuits on and off. They are tied into a separate lighting/HVAC control panel. There are no traditional wall switches, just occupancy sensors and the lighting control box which, essentially, is a pre-programmed timer.

Im wondering if anyone else has installed a similar system. It might become more common over time.

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SWDweller

· #2 · 14 d ago

Walgreens and CVS used to to this, back in the days of dial up. What a pain in the ass if corporate forgot about the no changing of the clocks here in Arizona, all the lights were an hour off. I more than once over road the corporate command and allowed local control.

This breaker is rated for continuous duty so it should be switch rated. That was a big deal in Phoenix for a time. Using breakers to switch off and on loads and they were not rated for that situation. Some of the breakers failed after some time.

New building probably guessing no circuit is close to 80% you should be fine.

Almost Retired

· #3 · 14 d ago

havent installed them
but called to trouble shoot that exact brand several years ago

canbug

· #4 · 14 d ago

I'm sure we will see more of this but shouldn't we be using switches and not turning breakers on and off? More wear and tear?

Tim.

Navyguy

· #5 · 14 d ago (Edited)

Never installed one. Not sure I like the ability for someone to turn on a breaker if I am working on it.

$400 loonies per breaker is pretty spendy too! I have always had a separate LP panel and used a 3-pole contactor to turn the whole panel on and off. Can't control the individual circuits like this... but is someone going in to turn off each breaker to turn off the light? Seems a little "gadety" to me (if that is even a word LOL).

I suppose if it is programmed, it only has to be done once I guess. More crap to go wrong.

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SWDweller

· #6 · 14 d ago

Personally I have been a fan of the RR-7's and RR-9's from GE. Latching relays are way cool as there is no coil using power all of the time.

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macmikeman

· #7 · 14 d ago

Customer is smart. They know breaker manufacturer has deeper pockets than companies that produce switching panels fed off standard circuit breakers. More likely to be around for support much longer than Hal's light switching llc.

macmikeman

· #8 · 14 d ago

We had this for a national hair cutting chain back as far as 1980, all lights were controlled from Ohio I think it was. Via dial up modems of all advanced things.

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paulengr

· #9 · 14 d ago

canbug said:
I'm sure we will see more of this but shouldn't we be using switches and not turning breakers on and off? More wear and tear?

Tim.

Correct. Contactors are designed for frequent switching and a lot of switching...1 million cycles or more is industry standard, but they can't handle fault currents. Breakers can handle the fault currents but are only designed to switch infrequently for maintenance or faults. A few hundred to thousand cycles is often all they are rated for.

Of course contactors can handle low level faults and breakers are sometimes used as contactors in low duty cycle applications but this downns't sound like one.

99cents

Discussion Starter · #10 · 14 d ago

canbug said:
I'm sure we will see more of this but shouldn't we be using switches and not turning breakers on and off? More wear and tear?

Tim.

The switch is separate from the breaker. Otherwise, it would mess with my emergency lighting.

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JRaef

· #11 · 13 d ago

It is about the endurance. UL-489 (the MCCB standard) requires that breakers (up to 100A) be rated for 10,000 mechanical switching operations, but only 6,000 while carrying current, then 4,000 with no current. So assuming 365 days of being used once per day, that means the breaker only lasts around 16 years. Given the extreme cost of these breakers, widespread use is unlikely. It’s still far less expensive to add lighting contactors or RRs, both of which will have more endurance and reliability, plus would not require changing out while hot, or shutting off power to the entire panelboard to service them.

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99cents

Discussion Starter · #12 · 13 d ago

But the switch is separate from the breaker, it’s just in the same case. It provides switching at the source of power independent of the breaker.

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splatz

· #13 · 13 d ago (Edited)

99cents said:
But the switch is separate from the breaker, it’s just in the same case. It provides switching at the source of power independent of the breaker.

From the catalog

In addition to providing conventional branch circuit protection, they include a unique solenoid-operated mechanism that provides for efficient breaker pulse-on and pulse-off operation when used with a suitable controller like Eaton’s Pow-R-Command™ lighting control system. These breakers can also be controlled by pushbutton or a PLC unit.

So it seems like you have a latching relay squeezed in there inside the breaker. You could also keep the relay / contactor outside the breaker.

It will save space, I have to admit.

It doesn't seem to save cost, the extra price of these breakers is way more than what a contactor for lighting would cost.

It will also make replacement a pain in the ass because Eaton and their distributors will not make these easy to find in stock everywhere items. They'll also be expensive to maintain, because you're going to have to replace a specialty product rather than a commodity product when they fail. It may also obsolete the panel prematurely.

I think these are the same breakers or at least similar to the ones that are in the Eaton lighting control panels I work with, the basic breaker functions last so far (10 years) but the controls do not last, at all.

It's not surprising a power distribution manufacturer getting into controls and automation wants to wrap everything in their panels. But IME with automation and technology, it's a high price to pay for a compact footprint, keep your stuff separate and independent so it's flexible, easy to maintain, not proprietary, very fundamental rule of design.

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460 Delta

· #14 · 13 d ago

splatz said:
From the catalog

So it seems like you have a latching relay squeezed in there inside the breaker. You could also keep the relay / contactor outside the breaker.

It will save space, I have to admit.

It doesn't seem to save cost, the extra price of these breakers is way more than what a contactor for lighting would cost.

It will also make replacement a pain in the ass because Eaton and their distributors will not make these easy to find in stock everywhere items. They'll also be expensive to maintain, because you're going to have to replace a specialty product rather than a commodity product when they fail. It may also obsolete the panel prematurely.

I think these are the same breakers or at least similar to the ones that are in the Eaton lighting control panels I work with, the basic breaker functions last so far (10 years) but the controls do not last, at all.

It's not surprising a power distribution manufacturer getting into controls and automation wants to wrap everything in their panels. But IME with automation and technology, it's a high price to pay for a compact footprint, keep your stuff separate and independent so it's flexible, easy to maintain, not proprietary, very fundamental rule of design.

I wonder if the panels will be able to accept run of the mill breakers to replace these 10lbs of sugar in a 5lb sack models when either A, they prove to be problematic and then obsoleted, or B, the new tenant in 5 years needs or wants NOTHING to do with this as his store is a completely different arrangement

This looks like some sales rep got ahold of a new engineer and sold him on the “Newest Automation System Integration Under One Manufacturer”.

I believe that we as field guys (and gals) roll our eyes when we see innovative solutions to problems that no one has ever seen exist before.

In case any engineers or future AI robots/engineers find this thread doing “research” please, please, PLEASE!!

K-eep
I-t
S-imple
S-tupid

Thank you in advance, the service electrician with a Wiggy (CAT rated) and a 9-1 screwdriver.

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99cents

Discussion Starter · #15 · 13 d ago

460 Delta said:
I wonder if the panels will be able to accept run of the mill breakers to replace these 10lbs of sugar in a 5lb sack models when either A, they prove to be problematic and then obsoleted, or B, the new tenant in 5 years needs or wants NOTHING to do with this as his store is a completely different arrangement

This looks like some sales rep got ahold of a new engineer and sold him on the “Newest Automation System Integration Under One Manufacturer”.

I believe that we as field guys (and gals) roll our eyes when we see innovative solutions to problems that no one has ever seen exist before.

In case any engineers or future AI robots/engineers find this thread doing “research” please, please, PLEASE!!

K-eep
I-t
S-imple
S-tupid

Thank you in advance, the service electrician with a Wiggy (CAT rated) and a 9-1 screwdriver.

The control panel also controls HVAC according to temperature, humidity and carbon dioxide levels. There is nothing KISS about this job.

Reactions: 3

frankendodge

· #16 · 13 d ago

Seems like an invitation to clutter up a panel with handfuls of control wiring. Is there a special control bus that gets added for those to plug in to?
I get how adding things like shunt trips for safety would be a good reason to have circuits returning to a panel.. but for lighting controls it seems like it goes against the intent of the codes, panel not as a raceway, splices in a panel etc..

It's listed so it's allowed.

splatz

· #17 · 13 d ago

99cents said:
The control panel also controls HVAC according to temperature, humidity and carbon dioxide levels. There is nothing KISS about this job.

But that has nothing to do with combining the power relays in the breakers. That's just a task for the building controls brain to deal with, and ultimately it has to control power based on those decisions. My point is, make the design modular so it's flexible and doesn't create unnecessary dependencies that benefit Eaton and make a pain in the ass for everyone else.

K eep
I t
S eparate
S tupid

Reactions: 1

Almost Retired

· #18 · 13 d ago

99cents said:
The switch is separate from the breaker. Otherwise, it would mess with my emergency lighting.

there was a thread similar to this several months back
everyone was upset that the breaker could be turned on remotely

no one noticed when i said the breaker is manual only, there is an electronic switch inside that is hardwired to the internet control box

Reactions: 3

Navyguy

· #19 · 13 d ago

Looking at the drawing of these the other day, it looked to me that basically it is the same as a theory as shunt trip breaker, but it can be turned back on also. I did not study the drawing, just looked at it quickly.

Now that I have looked at more closely, there is a separate source 24V that goes to the "blue" wire and you close a dry contact (PLC, HVAC controller, other device) and momentarily short out the Red to turn on or the Black to turn off. There appears to be a contact activated by some sort of solenoid inside the breaker that opens and closes, so I don't think you are actually moving the "handle" back and forth, you are just opening and closing the contact inside the breaker.

So in my original comment I was concerned about turning it on remotely, I don't think you can actually shift the handle from "on" to "off" or vice versa; so if there is an actual OL condition, I think someone needs to physically reset the breaker or if the breaker handle is "off", you need to physically need to turn it back "on".

Like I have said, I have never worked / installed them. I still think they are too expensive compared to a LP with a 100 / 200 amp contactor (which could also be operated remotely much easier I think).

I am assuming this is all related to LEED construction and the costs are being offset by rebate programs, etc.

Cheers
John

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canbug

· #20 · 13 d ago

So what does code, inspector say about controls and associated wiring in a panel?

Tim

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