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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Boring enough to reply to, that's not too shabby! :thumbup:

It's not exactly a hot debate of a topic or anything, I just think it's great a company is risking a new technology.. good for them! Who knows how it'll play out, and I wonder how this whole field is all going to end up. Which technology will reign 20 years from now.

Maybe there will be no one standard.. there will be dozens of different types of fuels, engines, hybrids and so on. I find 100 years of internal combustion boring, I find the future interesting. But I'm a dreamer.
 

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I don't think it's boring at all. It might bring down the price of gas one day. I gues we might be fighting over water in the future unfortunately. We just need to learn how to use ocean water. Wouldn't that be bitchen, pull up at the beach and fuel up!
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Okay lets add the to the equation:

CES 2014: Toyota shows off fuel cell car that can also power a home



Toyota Motor Corp. released new details on its fuel cell car Monday at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas - including plans for an adapter allowing the car to power your home.

A fully-fueled vehicle will be able to supply enough energy to power a house for a week in an emergency, Toyota said. Its engineers are working on an adapter that will connect the car into a home’s electrical grid.
 

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I was always somewhat curious as to why bond wanted to bruise his gin, and fwiw your post made me finally look it up (if you can call wikipedia looking it up).

Anyhow, interesting side note from wikipedia

Purpose of shaking[edit]
Scientists, specifically biochemists, and martini connoisseurs have investigated the difference between a martini shaken and a martini stirred. The Department of Biochemistry at the University of Western Ontario in Canada conducted a study to determine if the preparation of a martini has an influence on their antioxidant capacity; the study found that the shaken gin martinis were able to break down hydrogen peroxide and leave only 0.072% of the peroxide behind, versus the stirred gin martini, which left behind 0.157% of the peroxide.[10] Thus a shaken martini has more antioxidants than a stirred one. The study was done at the time because moderate consumption of alcohol appears to reduce the risk of cataracts, cardiovascular disease, and stroke.

Andrew Lycett, an Ian Fleming biographer, believed that Fleming liked his martinis shaken, not stirred because Fleming thought that stirring a drink diminished its flavour. Lycett also noted that Fleming preferred gin and vermouth for his martini.[11] It has also been said that Fleming was a fan of martinis shaken by Hans Schröder, a German bartender.[12][13][14][15]

A part of Ian Fleming's James Bond character was based on people in his surroundings. One such influence was his friend Bernhard von Lippe-Biesterfeld, who drank his vodka martini as Bond did, always shaken, not stirred.

Harry Craddock's Savoy Cocktail Book (1930) prescribes shaking for all its martini recipes.[16] However, many bartenders insist that any cocktail that involves nothing but transparent ingredients - such as martinis, manhattans, and negronis - must be stirred in order to maintain clarity and texture. The former is an aesthetic concern, the latter a matter of culinary taste. Shaking a drink is quite violent, and necessarily introduces air bubbles into the mix. This results in a cloudy appearance and a somewhat different texture on the tongue when compared to a stirred drink. However, when any of the ingredients are opaque (such as citrus juices, dairy, or eggs), aesthetically-pleasing clarity and texture are not as much of an issue. Furthermore, studies have shown that, while techniques and type of ice used to play a role in the final effect of chilling and diluting a drink, both shaking and stirring result in chilling the drink with equal effectiveness; stirring merely takes longer.[17][18] In essence, then, James Bond doesn't seem to care that his martini will be ugly upon presentation, or he might prefer the "shaken" version for its texture, or for the fact that he will receive his drink slightly earlier because shaking chills a liquid faster.

Some connoisseurs believe that shaking gin is a faux pas, supposedly because the shaking "bruises" the gin (a term referring to a slight bitter taste that can allegedly occur when gin is shaken). In Fleming's novel Casino Royale, it is stated that Bond "watched as the deep glass became frosted with the pale golden drink, slightly aerated by the bruising of the shaker," suggesting that Bond was requesting it shaken because of the vodka it contained. Prior to the 1960s, vodka was, for the most part, refined from potatoes (usually cheaper brands). This element made the vodka oily. To disperse the oil, Bond ordered his martinis shaken; thus, in the same scene where he orders the martini, he tells the barman about how vodka made from grain rather than potatoes makes his drink even better. Shaking is also said to dissolve the vermouth better making it less oily tasting.[19]
 

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I'll wait for "Mr. Fusion."
 

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The "fuel" is pure hydrogen, created by water electrolysis using electricity. Nice idea, but where the electricity comes from to perform the electrolysis and to deliver the water is left out of the discussion, as per usual.

The Ballard system and the Bloom Energy system both use Natural Gas as the source of the hydrogen by stripping it off of the hydrocarbon molecules leaving carbon and water in it's wake. That process shows more promise in that the fuel infrastructure is already in place (somewhat). The pure hydrogen model espoused by Toyota will mean an entirely new fuel delivery infrastructure, likely set up at existing gas stations by retrofitting them with a water electrolysis system and compressor. Toyota has had a research project here at UC Berkeley for the past few years running retrofitted Highlanders, but there is only one fueling station.

Still, the source of electricity to power those remains a big challenge. One cannot be "green" by burning coal to generate electricity to create a "green" fuel. People keep saying we can power the electrolysis system by using solar PV plants, but they never take it so far as to see how MUCH electricity is needed and how many acres of PV panels that would entail. The average gas station does not have enough surface area to accomplish it.

Bottom line, this is not quite ready for prime time...
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Totally agree with you JRaef, but one small consideration is that the hydrogen could be produced in areas with an abundance of electrical energy or unusable off-peak electrical energy. Then the hydrogen can be stored, held in storage, transported and used later or used in a totally different locale. Sort of like oil/gas of today.. which is probably why we're trying so hard to make it work.

I also agree, I don't see it really working long term... it's a silly way to make a fuel and use a fuel with a lot of losses along the way. Why do all that converting? And also taking into account as you mentioned, how was that electricity even produced to begin with?

Breakthroughs will come, but it's interesting to watch the process unfold with all these different technologies attempted.


Why a hydrogen economy doesn't make sense

This chart compares the useful transport energy requirements for a vehicle powered from a hydrogen process (left) vs. electricity (right). Image Credit: Ulf Bossel.
 
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