Stapling Romex ?
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This is the way I understand it:
You can secure or support romex with anything, it doesn't have to be a listed means of support. So you can use tywraps or string or duct tape. When doing that, you have to avoid bundling too many together, which is a whole 'nother issue.
When using an item that is listed for supporting romex, then you have to use that item according to it's listing. So if you use a romex staple and the staple says it can support 2 cables, then that's what it can support. A stacker says it can support 4 romex, a CJ says 6.
Anyone disagree?
What if you use a staple that isn't listed for supporting romex? Does that mean you can staple 4 romexes with it?
You can secure or support romex with anything, it doesn't have to be a listed means of support. So you can use tywraps or string or duct tape. When doing that, you have to avoid bundling too many together, which is a whole 'nother issue.
When using an item that is listed for supporting romex, then you have to use that item according to it's listing. So if you use a romex staple and the staple says it can support 2 cables, then that's what it can support. A stacker says it can support 4 romex, a CJ says 6.
Anyone disagree?
What if you use a staple that isn't listed for supporting romex? Does that mean you can staple 4 romexes with it?
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First of all .,,
I don't disagree with mr Hackwork .,, he did bring up few good points on how to secure it.
If that staple say it can support two then ya it is no issue at all.
But just becarefull with bundling that can nip ya hard if not watching it.
spacing of staples on NM/UF cables that will varies depending on how it runs some you will need little more than what you normally do on numbers of staples.
I don't disagree with mr Hackwork .,, he did bring up few good points on how to secure it.
If that staple say it can support two then ya it is no issue at all.
But just becarefull with bundling that can nip ya hard if not watching it.
spacing of staples on NM/UF cables that will varies depending on how it runs some you will need little more than what you normally do on numbers of staples.
Wouldn't that duct tape, and string have to be UL listed? :yes:
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Any more than 9 current carrying conductors and you derate. This picture is of a double. I go up to 4 cables with a staple(special staple) then to five I use 3M cable stackers.
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Sounds right to me. Of all of the options listed, I'd say staples are my least favorite.
In my post that you quoted I said this:
I also mentioned that I am not completely sure about it all, so if you have a code article saying romex support needs to be listed, please post it.
This is first year apprentice stuff.
Article 100 Definitions - "Listed".
110.3 (B) Installation and use.
110.21 (A) Manufacturers marking.
Hope this helps.
I am starting to think you are a real dolt, as telsa would say. You keep posting garbage across multiple threads. What you just posted doesn't apply to this conversation at all.
I will ask again, show me where code requires romex to be supported with listed material.
Until you provide that, which you won't, we all know that romex does NOT in fact require listed support and can be supported/secured with the items I mentioned.
That's easy: one or two Romex runs per staple.
It takes TOO MUCH EFFORT to try and get a third cable under the common staple at the same time the common staple is not dimensioned to hold three cables... it's too short.
Colorado Jims ( CJ6 ) are popular because they are FACE Fastened to the framing. They also can wrap quite a few cables... and can be re-opened to accept more cables after having been mounted.
The downside is that they're not being given away. ($)
They make sense when your cable count is fat ( like near the panel ) or when getting a staple gun into position will be a &^%^%$. ( This also means that swinging a hammer won't work, either. )
Such decisions make or break the profit point during a build. You can't hardly BELIEVE the amount of labor wasted trying to make the 'wrong' solution 'work.'
The lowest cost total solution to a given build will show plenty of stapled Romex -- with a staple gun, never a hammer -- and a blend of trick fasteners back towards the panel -- that just fly into the building.
Virtually ALL materials savings efforts blow up -- as they burn up too much labor.
Trick materials are priced entirely based upon the labor savings they offer.
Because staples are so cheap, they are found everywhere in Romex world.
The only locations that justify anything other than staples are near the panel (or switches) where the cable count rises dramatically -- and in screwy locations that make staple gun application just too difficult.
As a practical matter, you never see anyone loading anything other than the basic staple -- set to accept one or two Romex runs.
It will also suffice to handle (1) 10-2, etc.
That's why it's called Romex racing.
I gave you the code sections, they apply to everything, if you can't read, that's not my problem. Maybe you could have someone read it to you.
I'm starting to believe you secure your work with duct tape and string.
In fact I have no doubt.
You are saying that romex is required to be secured with listed items, but you can't cite the listing requirement for it?
Not only are you wrong, but the code you came up with to substantiate what you said is laughable at best.
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=142271
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334.30 Securing and Supporting
Nonmetallic-sheathed cable shall be supported and secured by staples, cable ties, straps, hangers, or similar fittings designed and installed so as not to damage the cable, at intervals not exceeding 1.4 m (4 1/ 2 ft) and within 300 mm (12 in. or 8" using 314.17(C) Ex. if meets allowance) of every outlet box, junction box, cabinet, or fitting. Flat cables shall not be stapled on edge. Sections of cable protected from physical damage by raceway shall not be required to be secured within the raceway.
If it were my job, I would argue duct tape and string were not designed to be used to support NM. Even if not listed, it implies it needs to be a product designed to support NM in such a way to not damage the cable, and to be installed in that manner as well.
Nonmetallic-sheathed cable shall be supported and secured by staples, cable ties, straps, hangers, or similar fittings designed and installed so as not to damage the cable, at intervals not exceeding 1.4 m (4 1/ 2 ft) and within 300 mm (12 in. or 8" using 314.17(C) Ex. if meets allowance) of every outlet box, junction box, cabinet, or fitting. Flat cables shall not be stapled on edge. Sections of cable protected from physical damage by raceway shall not be required to be secured within the raceway.
If it were my job, I would argue duct tape and string were not designed to be used to support NM. Even if not listed, it implies it needs to be a product designed to support NM in such a way to not damage the cable, and to be installed in that manner as well.
There is no listing requirement. You bring up a completely different topic.
We have known for years that tie wraps have been acceptable to secure romex. Tie wraps aren't designed with any specific link to romex. That alone shows that the design part of it doesn't mean the product has to be made for romex.
I just read a post in which Dennis Alwon said he could bend a nail over to secure romex and it would be code compliant. Another guy said he has stapled a piece of romex sheath around 3 cables to secure them to the stud and the inspector knew it was compliant.
While I don't agree with your assessment on the "designed" thing, at least you posted a valid argument. What joebanana said about 110.3B and 110.21A is inexcusable for someone who is bragging about his superior code knowledge in another thread.
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I have seen couple inspectors just bat the eyes and say not much with tiewraps straps for NM's and one did look at me but never say a word as long it is used for support.,,
What are these Colorado Jim things you guys are talking about? Am I on the wrong forum again?...
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Its those cheesy knock offs of the original slim jim
Actually it may be those bendable metal straps??? Cant say ive seen any for bundling romex though
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