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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I recently took a picture of an electrical panel to an inspector and the question came up of an uninsulated circuit conductor being used as a neutral. (Probably an old range and dryer circuit.) To me it looks like this is not a problem for an existing circuit. - See exception NEC 250.140 Exception(3) However, the inspector seemed to have a problem with it. - Also, the exception states it must originate at the service equipment for the exception to apply. For this particular installation, the panel is remote from the meter stack. (I am assuming the meter stack has a main disconnect for the panel pictured. I didn't check, that is not what I was there for.) At any rate, any thoughts,... well any relevant thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks in advance! (I hope my picture loads... hmmm....)
 

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The install is not compliant as you stated it must originate at the service equipment. How would you keep that bare conductor isolated from the panel can?
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
Makes sense to me. That's what this is... a condo. Thanks for the replies! Hmmm.... so this panel in this condo unit is in no way considered service equipment?
 

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Makes sense to me. That's what this is... a condo. Thanks for the replies! Hmmm.... so this panel in this condo unit is in no way considered service equipment?
Best bet is just wrap both SEU neutrals in white electrical tape, that will prevent it from touching the can. Anyway you have a strand not under the lug :laughing:

Its not considered service equipment because the maindisconeect is else where. Curious... is the feed to this panel metal conduit?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Hmmm.... just wondering if this installation might fit into this definition somehow.... Service equipment - The necessary equipment, usually consisting of circuit breakers or switches and fuses and their accessories, connected to the load end of service conductors to a building or other structure, or an otherwise designated area, and intended to constitute the main control and cutoff of the supply. Service equipment does not include the metering equipment, such as the meter and/or meter enclosures [230.66].
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Best bet is just wrap both SEU neutrals in white electrical tape, that will prevent it from touching the can. Anyway you have a strand not under the lug :laughing:

Its not considered service equipment because the maindisconeect is else where. Curious... is the feed to this panel metal conduit?
I am almost sure the feed is in metal conduit... when I looked at it I questioned it and let the customer know I wasn't sure about it. So I took it to the inspector and asked him about it. I do agree that, to me, this is probably not service equipment and it would be best to wrap it. However, since this is often seen in this type of installation, I am wondering about it.
 

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I am almost sure the feed is in metal conduit... when I looked at it I questioned it and let the customer know I wasn't sure about it. So I took it to the inspector and asked him about it. I do agree that, to me, this is probably not service equipment and it would be best to wrap it. However, since this is often seen in this type of installation, I am wondering about it.
There is a much bigger issue at hand, where is the ground bar? How are those EGCs making an electrical path to the conduit?
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
There is a much bigger issue at hand, where is the ground bar? How are those EGCs making an electrical path to the conduit?
The strap that usually bonds the neutral bus to the can is connected to all the grounds, which are all under one lug. The lug and strap are hidden in the picture by the feeder conductors.
 

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The strap that usually bonds the neutral bus to the can is connected to all the grounds, which are all under one lug. The lug and strap are hidden in the picture by the feeder conductors.


Ok that is better. But its still something that needs to be corrected. The lug is not designed to handle that many individual conductors. A separate ground bar should be added which is easy to get for GE panels.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Ok that is better. But its still something that needs to be corrected. The lug is not designed to handle that many individual conductors. A separate ground bar should be added which is easy to get for GE panels.
I sent a new invoice to the customer with these recommendations:

General Notes and/or Exclusions:
1) Grounds from original installation do not appear to be properly terminated in a properly rated lug. It is recommended that a separate ground bus be installed and properly mounted to panel can.
2) Uninsulated grounded conductors were found on both 30A and 40A circuits (1 each) and terminated under same lug. (Lug is most likely not rated for both terminations.) It is recommended, at a minimum, to install 2 each collar straps for proper wire termination and to wrap uninsulated wires with non conductive tape to ensure proper separation from panel can. - Typical $80.00 service fee will be waved if recommended work is scheduled within 30 days. (Hourly rate still applies.)

I just wish I had made these recommendations when I was there... Thanks for the input! :thumbup:
 

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Paul without a main breaker this panel is not a service panel and the neutrals and equipment grounds must be isolated. If they are connected then the install has yet another violation
 
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I sent a new invoice to the customer with these recommendations:

General Notes and/or Exclusions:
1) Grounds from original installation do not appear to be properly terminated in a properly rated lug. It is recommended that a separate ground bus be installed and properly mounted to panel can.
2) Uninsulated grounded conductors were found on both 30A and 40A circuits (1 each) and terminated under same lug. (Lug is most likely not rated for both terminations.) It is recommended, at a minimum, to install 2 each collar straps for proper wire termination and to wrap uninsulated wires with non conductive tape to ensure proper separation from panel can. - Typical $80.00 service fee will be waved if recommended work is scheduled within 30 days. (Hourly rate still applies.)

I just wish I had made these recommendations when I was there... Thanks for the input! :thumbup:
Looks good from here :thumbup::)

Fixing those 3 things will eliminate several hazards.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 · (Edited)
Paul without a main breaker this panel is not a service panel and the neutrals and equipment grounds must be isolated. If they are connected then the install has yet another violation
Thanks! Would this have met code requirements at the time it was installed? I am guessing the building is probably 30 years, (or more), old. I am speaking of the requirement that the branch circuit originate from the service equipment. My reason for asking this is because usually it is "grandfathered" in if it was installed to code specifications at the time it was installed. (Just trying to explain my thinking here.)
 

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Thanks! Would this have met code requirements at the time it was installed? I am guessing the building is probably 30 years, (or more), old. I am speaking of the requirement that the branch circuit originate from the service equipment. My reason for asking this is because usually it is "grandfathered" in if it was installed to code specifications at the time it was installed. (Just trying to explain my thinking here.)
All 3 were code violations going back for 50 years.
 

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If it helps the OP feel better about tapping it up if the neutral was insulated (like THHN in conduit or in NM-B without a ground) coming from a range or dryer you were allowed back in the day to come out of a subpanel provided it was landed on the neutral bar.
 
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