What year code cycle are you on? How many inches is it from the edge of the shower? 410 is luminaires, not baseboards. Your location is not listed in the definition.


Here is NEC 2023

Location, Damp. (Damp Location)

Locations protected from weather and not subject to saturation with water or other liquids but subject to moderate degrees of moisture. (CMP-1)
Informational Note:
Examples of such locations include partially protected locations under canopies, marquees, roofed open porches, and like locations, and interior locations subject to moderate degrees of moisture, such as some basements, some barns, and some cold-storage warehouses.

 

What year code cycle are you on? How many inches is it from the edge of the shower? 410 is luminaires, not baseboards. Your location is not listed in the definition.


Here is NEC 2023

Location, Damp. (Damp Location)

Locations protected from weather and not subject to saturation with water or other liquids but subject to moderate degrees of moisture. (CMP-1)
Informational Note:
Examples of such locations include partially protected locations under canopies, marquees, roofed open porches, and like locations, and interior locations subject to moderate degrees of moisture, such as some basements, some barns, and some cold-storage warehouses.

It is less than six inches and it is a shower with a curtain.
I realize 410 is luminaires, just wanted to use it as an example of how the book views shower/tub locations and wondering if that might be supportive of my case.
Indiana Electrical Code: (675-IAC-17 IEC)
Based on: 2008 National Electrical Code (1st printing) with Indiana Amendments

 

Electric heater 6" away, I would demand " wet location". As well as the rest of the requirements in a bathroom. How did this get through the plan inspection phase?
My guess your organization is going to be on the hook for approving this for construction.
Have you taken this situation to the Building Official. You better if he does not have knowledge of this. Mistakes like this get people sued and fired.

Simple have them take the heater out or get one that is at least 18" away from the source of water. Reaching down and turning this appliance on naked and barefoot seems wrong on so many levels.

 

I am first investigating what specific code cite I can use to apply in the circumstance. For instance, is there a code cite that requires the 18" away from water you've mentioned?
thanks

 

Was the shower moved? Was any electrical work added/changed (permit required) besides fixture replacement?

What i'm getting at is current code may not apply. Could it possibly have been compliant when it was originally built?

 

Was the shower moved? Was any electrical work added/changed (permit required) besides fixture replacement?

What i'm getting at is current code may not apply. Could it possibly have been compliant when it was originally built?

Yes current code does apply. It was a complete gut and remodel, new electrical and walls, turning a single family home into a duplex. A building permit was pulled.

 

I went looking and all I found was that baseboard heaters in bathrooms have to be IPX4
https://www.meteorelectrical.com/bl...p-rating-chart.html#:~:text=For example, if any item,IP rating table, e.g IP44M. Which if the control knob is close to the shower there would be a problem.

For better information on the IPX4 designation check out the link.
I did find some references to no outlets closer than 15" to a toilet. (no code sections listed)

Since I do not know the particulars for this installation it is impossible to help you with a code section. You work for the AHJ seems simple to me. Have someone of authority make a decision.

I have been an electrical inspector in the past, for a state school. I never tried to go out and create new rules/laws. I never ran into this before either. Heat strips in the bathroom so close to the shower, duh,,, do you need to be a rocket scientist to understand this is a bad idea.

 

I think you should pick a publication that is for the United States, not the UK and Ireland.

 

Yes for certain, lol

 

Having access to the instructions or brand may also shed light on this. Manufacturers instructions have to be followed. I'd agree that it is a damp location. Whether the fact that the thermostat is on it or not, I can't say if that makes a difference. I don't know that there is a dimension. Arguably, electric floor heat is GFCI protected, usually as part of the thermostat. Good question.

 

The solution is probably to add a second panel and fill it with arc fault circuit breakers, preferably the dual use kind. It will recieve full approval from NEMA , even if you don't put in any wires inside of it.

 

You need to refer to the manufacturer. Is the heater able to be mounted where it is? Is it listed for Location Wet? As long as it is GFCI protected and UL listed for it's purpose, it conforms to the electrical code. Code does not tell you how close or far heater has to be.
See Art 100 where Location Damp, Dry and Wet are delineated.
Common sense would say wet area, and this is how I would treat it. If heater is not listed as suitable in wet location, it needs to be replaced with one that is, or removed. Whomever signed off on permit should carry some responsibility.

 

Better check definitions in the code book because push comes to shove and I’d be standing by that, not opinions and intuition. If water outside the shower is a concern, I would say you are going to have more problems when the floor and walls rot out.

 

I agree the datasheet for the equipment (heater) should be reviewed.
As part of the listing it's likely to indicate where it can and can't be installed, and how.

 

Has anybody mentioned NEC 424.12 A & B?

 

If the bathroom is a damp location, why isn’t it listed in the definition? It’s outside the shower, not in it.

 

Definitions does Not list areas specific...does it? It lists locations...again, not SPECIFIC locations. Unless specific locations spelled out...everything is up to interpretation, or as you say 'opinions'.
If there is a place where locations specific for this topic is delineated...please share, I certainly do not know everythting.

 

Nor do I, but they already answered the question. When she looked up 410, the code is specifically indicating damp location for fixtures inside of the tub/shower. Not outside. If the outside of the shower isn’t damp for the lights, why is it for the heater? That makes no sense, common or otherwise. If spraying water is a trigger for a damp location, I can probably hit the range from my kitchen sink sprayer.

The code doesn’t list specific locations, but it does give examples. Why list some basements, but not some bathrooms?

 

Water typically goes down. Would you put a non water resistant heater 6" from your shower pan that your kids shower in? IMO, the code should list ALL examples, don't you think? This way not as much is left up to 'interpretation'.

 

I have no problem with electrical outside the shower space. We install receptacles for fancy toilets right next to them. Heated towel bars you can reach from the shower. Like I said, if you are spraying water outside the shower, the problem is going to be the floor, not something on the wall that isn’t even touching the floor.

 

Your are missing my point. The OP did not know if the heater was rated. I have a towel warmer in my MB. It is on GFCI and there is a UL rated switch with sealed cover. I have floor heat so not related. Receptacles for toilet seat heaters are supposed to be GFCI, seat warmer is rated and I believe LV from plug in transformer to heater?
If the heater in question, is mounted on the floor or close to the floor six inches from shower pan, that heater better be ****in rated for wet location. You can keep arguing with me all you want. I have all day.

 

It’s still not a wet location.

 

Says you

 

It's a valid question. I work in plenty of apartments with electric heat and a small baseboard heater or fan forced wall heater in them not far from the shower or tub. I haven't seen anything that would cause me to want to GFCI protect or from experience. Then again we fight this battle in the kitchen with ranges and other appliances. I've never run into an issue with it.

 

Exactly, now the code says GFCI the range within 6 feet of the sink. But not a peep about heaters in the bathroom.

 

fwiw, CEC had GFCI protection required if the t-stat was within 3' of the tub (or sink)

They updated it (2018 code cycle I think) that now if the BB heater is within 3' of the tub it requires GFCI .

 

Heaven forbid that grounded metal housing on the baseboard heater gets water splashed on it.

 

It works better when the metal isn’t grounded. I’ve been bathing with a toaster for the past couple months and nothing has happened. Then I realized the drain and water lines are all plastic.

 

The

And if I showed up to wire a remodeled bathroom, I wouldn’t run BX or AC or use some old two wire crap either. But a lot of bathrooms have either a baseboard or flush unit in them.

I also have a hot water baseboard in my bathroom next to the shower. It’s been there almost 25 years, still not rusted. We use a shower curtain, works great. Water stays inside and goes down the drain. Wonderful system really.

The NEC applies to both new and old construction. I am working in a house now that has an illegal apartment wired in BX but they used plastic boxes. It is staying because they are not paying me to fix it. That is one reason to install GFCI on things installed in the shower space. As for the rust on the baseboard, I sometimes get carried away with the clorox and the spray thing.

 

I'm think'n just how da frock wuz I ever able to SURVIVE the no code days into me octogenarian morphology? Gee wiz, ah coulda been kilt 'cause we could'nt 'ford AFI's......even day been invented yet...huh?
OK....bring it...

 

There is the old tale of the guy putting panels inside the shower, urban legend?

 

I've seen panels in shower

Worst was old fuse box, missing cover

 

I stood in a bathtub once to look at a panel. I told them it would be better to replace it with an exterior panel that would face the other way. Never heard back. It might still be that way.

 

I had to work on this panel. The perspective in the picture is off because the right side of the toilet was only actually wide enough for one leg (which was touching the water main that came in right there), so I had to straddle the toilet while working on the energized panel.

 

My wife inherited one of these. Basement bath. Tub overflowed into it from upstairs. On my list of things to relocate and repair, before it becomes a rental.

 

Got your own septic system.

 

Use of the washer in the basement causes the upstairs tub to overflow so working that out. The oil company shut us off too for one of the legs of the tank has a plastic shim and the door on the boiler can’t open because it’s too close to the wall. I’ll get to it…