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Replacement motors repeatedly dying

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2.4K views 26 replies 13 participants last post by  John Valdes  
#1 ·
Hey guys, got a AB Flex 40 running a 3 phase, 600V, 2 HP motor. The VFD is adequately sized (600 in, 600 out, good for 4.2 continuous amps and for a 3HP motor).

Every 4 weeks I get the same message on the VFD. F041 which is phase short. Motor checks out fine on instruments(insulation test and ohms) but when you put it on the breaker and liven it, it is indeed compromised and the windings blow. When you change the motor it all works good again.

My question is, what could be causing the same problem so often? I have seen it four or five times in the last six months and I do not know what is wrong. My next idea is to change out the VFD but I don't feel that's the issue. Bad run of motors perhaps?

Ideas?
 
#24 ·
According to the industrial matrix website, this is Not an inverter-duty motor. It is not a particularly efficient motor, so I doubt it is inverter-duty. This should only be an issue if you are running below 40Hz or so. It shows as a 60Hz motor. It also says it is an 1,800 rpm motor, even though I see the plate says 3450. Since it has been rewound, any chance it is wound wrong, and you are over-running it?
F41 is excess current between 'these' two output terminals. PowerFlex Fault Codes Could there be a parasitic bleed to ground on the wiring causing increased current? Remember, this could also be cause from pinched wiring, not just frayed wiring.
If you have another drive, I would swap the drive with the next motor. But first I would check my wiring back to the source.
 
#5 ·
Jrp says their 3 phase motors are inverter rated but I don’t see it on that nameplate. I’d run through and record all your parameters, and post them here. Seen a few setup wrong on rpm and motor pole count messing with the svc. Also start some QC protocol with your dept that every motor gets an insulation test before install and make it part of the autopsy too.
 
#7 ·
I ran into this ONCE in my career. Drive remote from the motor >100 feet.
Had to add a MTE dV-dt filter on the drive.


This can get complicated so read then apply what you have learned.
I became friends with the MTE rep in my area. Saved my bacon more than once.
 
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#9 ·
Judging by appearances, if the ink on the nameplate lasts as long as the winding does, I’d say that it has served its useful lifespan.

Might be time to look into windings that are made with inverter spike resistant wire. Pulses from an inverter running at 600V, are way higher than 600V.

Seems like you have a good VFD that has tolerated multiple winding failures and keeps on ticking. But you need to do some study on voltage spikes from inverter drives, especially 600V ones, the pulses will be well over 1000v, and *********** motors aren’t made for that.

Use a filter and get a unit from a American supplier that is rated on the tag for inverter duty at 600V.
 
#10 ·
Are the motors "inverter duty"? Do they have (spike resistant ™ ) magnet wire like @CMP mentions above? Are the other machines running without issue, exactly the same? Same motors? Same drive? How about the parameters? Are they exactly the same? What's the "carrier frequency set to"? How does the current look against the other machines?
Do you have a spare known good drive? You could clear drive issues up pretty easy with a swap. Can you take the parameters from another drive and upload them to the drive in question? Do you have a megger?
But I lean to the motors. Drives are very good at finding faults. Even better than we can or even a motor shop can.
Once in the motor shop we could not find a ground fault with a surge tester, or high pot. But the drive found it. We ended up sending the motor back to the manufacturer as it was under warranty. They replaced it.
Do a little research on inverter duty magnet wire. The temp, voltage and insulation rating is much better than regular magnet wire. I would think these days all manufacturers use it. Not sure about manufactures in Asia though.
Motor shops now use it exclusively for every rewind. So if they have been rewound they should have it? Check and be sure. Do you have a motor shop you use? Why not get them involved or just ask questions. They know this stuff and see this stuff. So they may be able to help you.
 
#13 ·
Take the motor apart. Look for bearing fluting and look for where/how the coil is burning up. You are getting phase to phase damage which easily shows up with a milliohm meter. Megger won't ever find those. Post a picture.

If you don't see 6 burn spots perfectly symmetrical, it is NOT reflected waves or surges.
 
#21 ·
View attachment 184018


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OP stated that the motors pass a Megger test but fail anyways in post #1. Excessive bearing currents result in pitting of the bearings that appears as a "frosred" appearance of the rolling elements (instead of shiny and polished) and there is nearly always a series of grooves called bearing fluting some place on the inner or outer race. Bearing failures allow the shaft to hit the stator ripping through the insulation and shorting the stator to the frame, causing a ground fault trip. These are very easy to detect because it fails a Megger test every time. OP however is reporting NONE of the failures failed a Megger test.

The authors also completely misunderstand bearing currents. There are 4 different common ones and they only describe one of them. The most common known one that has been around since induction motors were invented is caused by a magnetic field disortion which causes circulating currents within the motor itself (end to end). The electrical path is from the shaft where the current is inducted through the bearing on one end, through the frame, and returning back through the other bearing. As motors exceed about 1,000 HP it becomes necessary to install grounding brushes to short circuit the bearings to avoid damage. The second kind are low level currents that are caused by stray capacitance within the motor, but it's so low level that it never exceeds the bearing current limits (milliamps). The third kind are high frequency currents that couple through the air gap. The motor is insulated (mostly) and forms a capacitor. High frequency harmonics can easily pass through the motor bearings as non-circulating currents. This effect though is limited to smaller motors, generally under around 10 HP. Over about 25 HP the air gaps are just too large. This is also the only effect the article actually talks about so apparently the author is mostly familiar with small fractional HP motors. A second effect is that common mode voltages applied to the motor create currents in the bearings and this effect can be very severe with VFD's that lack any kind of output filtering. As an example two different 1200 A Allen Bradley VFD's at two different sites caused this type of bearing current with random discharges exceeding 90 A. It took quite a large common mode filter (a couple hundred pounds) to bring the bearing currents down to under the 10 A the bearings could pass without damage. Another similar effect you sometimes see with overhung fans is that static discharges for example cause the same bearing currents as common mode voltages in drives.

Reason I'm saying this is because I work for a motor shop and we get calls on bearing fluting fairly often. We actually measure it and recommend solutions based on what we're measuring. We also follow up because sometimes it takes more than one "filter" (whatever device it is) to do the job. And with grounding brushes customers often like the Aegis rings but they don't actually work very well (again measurements don't lie). All the manufacturers recommend their solution but there is no one size fits all. For instance shaft grounding (Aegis, Helwig) works great for circulating currents but does nothing for HF currents. HF currents are easily blocked by ferrite cores that Allen Bradley likes to use but useless on larger low frequency common mode currents. MH&W Cool Blue stuff doesn't block circulating currents.
 
#23 ·
This is what I'd do:
1) Forget about is the motor rated for INV/VFD? Any newer motor is. Forget that.
2) If these motors are driving the same type of mechanical load (example: sliding doors, conveyors, etc...), look that the MECHANICAL attached. Ensure the bearings are decent. Ensure any counterweights, or torque assisting springs (with wound up energy) are charged; tracks are clear; gearboxs/transmissions/rack-pinions aren't missing internal teeth.
3) Are your existing motors discoloring? That implies heat. With mechanical load attached, temporarily connect the motors across the line (no VFD), check the ampacity. Should be no more than FLA x SF. Remove the mechanical load, test ampacity again. Some minor drop in current should be observed.
 
#27 ·
This is an old thread. However for the record motor shops can take a look and maybe tell you exactly what is causing the repeated issues/failures.
It’s what they do if they are a good motor shop.
They determine motor problems and if they are good they will provide a report as to the problem and corrective action needed.
Everyone that has multiple motors should have a good EASA motor shop.