I don't think the solar tie in breaker is counted as one of the six. Maybe this building has two solar breakers...

 

230.71


Multiple-occupancy buildings may have service-entrance conductors run to each occupancy, and each such set of service-entrance conductors may have from one to six separate disconnects (see 230.40, Exception No. 1). Shown below is a single enclosure for grouping service equipment that consists of separate compartments for six circuit breakers or six fused switches.

This arrangement does not require a single main service disconnecting means if they are in separate compartments

 

230.40 Ex No. 1 would be applicable if they didn't use meter mains... But then the rules for service entrance conductors would apply and they would have to run the conductors outside the building.

 

The building I'm on has 25 throws of the hand

230.40 Ex No. 1 would be applicable if they didn't use meter mains... But then the rules for service entrance conductors would apply and they would have to run the conductors outside the building.

Does those conduits run into a basement or under the slab?

 

230.71


Multiple-occupancy buildings may have service-entrance conductors run to each occupancy, and each such set of service-entrance conductors may have from one to six separate disconnects (see 230.40, Exception No. 1). Shown below is a single enclosure for grouping service equipment that consists of separate compartments for six circuit breakers or six fused switches.

This arrangement does not require a single main service disconnecting means if they are in separate compartments

Except they haven't run service entrance conductors to each occupancy, they have run feeders because they used a meter main.

 

Why do you think they are feeders?

 

Why do you think they are feeders?

Because they are:

That meter pack is the service equipment and it has to feed a panel that the branch circuits for the occupancy comes out of meaning there is final OCPD downstream of that service equipment.

Service Entrance conductors have NO OCPD.

 

None of the illustrations reference multi occupancy buildings.

I full well know the difference between a service, feeder, and branch circuit.

 

🍿 🍿 🍿 🍻

 

None of the illustrations reference multi occupancy buildings.

I full well know the difference between a service, feeder, and branch circuit.

Apparently you don't because there are no service entrance conductors feeding any of those occupancies. There are underground service conductors, bus bars, and then a feeder.

 

Only a utility can provide a service. Anything after the first disconnect are feeders.

 

You've actually got me thinking now if busbars are considered conductors though.

 

Why would they not be?

 

In Oregon, the 6 disconnect rule does not exist.

Well, a few years ago it didn't I don't know about now.

 

Hey I'm still confused about this too. Does a "meter main" mean there is one switch to turn off all the meters in the enclosure like a master stop switch? Is this master stop switch located inside this enclosure or somewhere upstream between the service point and this enclosure?

 

A meter main is used to describe equipment that is one meter which feeds one main breaker. There usually isn't a single breaker in them that opens all the meters.

 

Why would they not be?

Because I don't feel like bus bars are conductors, they are part of the equipment. However, I can see the argument that they are as well. I think this is a gap that needs to be fixed for the purposes of that exception.

 

I do not believe it is 6 throws to shut off the building, I always remember it as 6 throws to shut off the service.

There are places in Tucson AZ that have up to 8 disconnects with no main on apartments. They are old installations and I do not know how or when they were installed. I have always called the serving POCO
"cave man electric" for some of their rules and concepts.

 

I do not believe it is 6 throws to shut off the building, I always remember it as 6 throws to shut off the service.

The service to one dwelling, or the service to a building with multiple dwellings?

 

Each Meter is considered a different service, so no limitation on number of individual meters and single associated shutoffs. Issue is there should be required placards identifying which meter/shutoff is associated with which unit. Usually the POCO and AHI would require the placards.

A single cold shutoff switch rated for 1200+ amps would be ridiculous expensive, and not required.

 

my thing is wouldnt the building itself require 6 throws or less to completely shut off building. View attachment 179384

Not if it meets 230.40 Ex No. 1. Then EACH OCCUOANCY can have UP TO 6 throws of the hand each.

 

Each Meter is considered a different service, so no limitation on number of individual meters and single associated shutoffs. Issue is there should be required placards identifying which meter/shutoff is associated with which unit. Usually the POCO and AHI would require the placards.

A single cold shutoff switch rated for 1200+ amps would be ridiculous expensive, and not required.

Each meter is NOT an individual service as that would violate 230.2 and does not conform with the definition of service either. This is all ONE SERVICE but has multiple service disconnects. I contend that it does not meet 230.40 Ex No. 1 and as such violates the 6 throw rule.

But again, I think the NEC needs to clarify if bus bars installed in packaged equipment are considered conductors.

 

Each apartment/condo is a separate dwelling unit. I believe the line side power to the meter sockets (and sub-distribution) is covered by the NESC requirements, and not the NEC.

 

Each apartment/condo is a separate dwelling unit. I believe the line side power to the meter sockets (and sub-distribution) is covered by the NESC requirements, and not the NEC.

That depends on where the service point is. Usually on an underground service it is where the termination of the underground conductors is but not always. Anything past the service point is governed by the NEC if so adopted.

 

So as in having a six pack of meter/mains in a combo, each pack is counted as one service. Ingenious. So the total count of meters/mains do not count as long as they are grouped by six or less per lateral

Sent from my SM-A536U1 using Tapatalk

Kind of, I haven't ever seen 2 laterals to the same building for the same service characteristics unless the capacity was too large for a single. You could run into 230.2 issues if you have more than one service as well if the POCO will even supply you with more than one.

 

In my old PseG (LIPA) territory you could not get more than one service to any structure unless you have a cinderblock wall extending through the roof line. I like the way they do business here compared to long Island

Sent from my SM-A536U1 using Tapatalk

 

Yup that would be a firewall and creates 2 buildings.

 

We may be looking at 2 single phase services at 120/240 volts Single Ø. So exception #2 would apply. It appears that the service laterals or underground service entry conductors are going up into each stack directly. If the services are 1Ø it seems likely to me that it fits exception #2

ARTICLE 230 Services

Part I. General
230.2 Number of Services. A building or other structure served shall be supplied by only one service unless permitted in 230.2(A) through (D).
For the purpose of 230.40, Exception No. 2 only, underground sets of conductors, 1/0 AWG and larger, running to the same location and connected together at their supply end but not connected together at their load end shall be considered to be supplying one service.

(C) Capacity Requirements. Additional services shall be permitted under any of the following:

(2) Where the load requirements of a single-phase installation are greater than the serving agency normally supplies through one service.

Tom Horne

 

I was being sarcastic. Many places rent out multiple units and then cut out doorways or large archways for fork trucks. A fire wall is a firewall. No doorways of any kind are allowed. Not even a fire rated door. A door can be propped open. As soon as a door is cut, the two buildings then become one building.

There is no nice way to tell you that you are wrong but you are. Larger openings can be protected with rolling doors supported by a sloping track which causes them to close by gravity once the hold open device is released. Fire doors are also available as an overhead roll down shutter assembly.

Some of the door closure releasing mechanisms are simple fusible links.

Others are electrically released to close by the fire alarm system.

Automatic fire alarm controlled fire door release.

No modern factory would be insurable without the use of fire doors which allow fork lift trucks and other powered stock and machinery moving equipment through the fire walls that divide the structure into separate fire areas that can be protected with Standard Automatic Fire Sprinkler systems. Much smaller fire resistive door assemblies are available to protect conveyor and other stock moving openings.

Fire doors are available with ratings up to 4 hours and to fit any size opening.

For a sense of the size of this door and the opening it protects notice the "man door" built into the sliding door. Fire doors are available with a much dressier appearance for use in office and conference venues.

The San Francisco football team's stadium at candlestick park had an even larger fire door on it's seaward end. When the visiting team had to kick in that direction the stadium staff would open the door causing the usually strong wind off the sea to blow against them and assist the home teams kicker when kicking away from the seaward end. Once the teams traded ends at half time the door would be closed and the stiff breeze would no longer blow through. They were eventually caught at it of course so the commissioners made them stop the practice.

I took my Associate of Science in Fire Protection Technology at City College of San Francisco only a few miles away.

Tom Horne

 

There is no nice way to tell you that you are wrong but you are. Larger openings can be protected with rolling doors supported by a sloping track which causes them to close by gravity once the hold open device is released. Fire doors are also available as an overhead roll down shutter assembly.

Some of the door closure releasing mechanisms are simple fusible links.
View attachment 179638

Others are electrically released to close by the fire alarm system.
View attachment 179641
Automatic fire alarm controlled fire door release.

No modern factory would be insurable without the use of fire doors which allow fork lift trucks and other powered stock and machinery moving equipment through the fire walls that divide the structure into separate fire areas that can be protected with Standard Automatic Fire Sprinkler systems. Much smaller fire resistive door assemblies are available to protect conveyor and other stock moving openings.
View attachment 179639

Fire doors are available with ratings up to 4 hours and to fit any size opening.
View attachment 179640
For a sense of the size of this door and the opening it protects notice the "man door" built into the sliding door. Fire doors are available with a much dressier appearance for use in office and conference venues.

The San Francisco football team's stadium at candlestick park had an even larger fire door on it's seaward end. When the visiting team had to kick in that direction the stadium staff would open the door causing the usually strong wind off the sea to blow against them and assist the home teams kicker when kicking away from the seaward end. Once the teams traded ends at half time the door would be closed and the stiff breeze would no longer blow through. They were eventually caught at it of course so the commissioners made them stop the practice.

I took my Associate of Science in Fire Protection Technology at City College of San Francisco only a few miles away.

Tom Horne

Not in New York State.

 

Fire doors are to stop the spread of smoke and fire. They also slow down the air that feeds the fire. The 6 throws grouped together is to shut down the building in one location so you don't have to look all over the building for the main switch. There are a number of reasons to shut down other than a fire. A distribution panel is arcing or the building is single phasing. I am not talking about very large buildings. They have their own unique requirements. There are many 10,000 sq-ft buildings broken up into six smaller units. Builder is cheap so every other block wall is 3 feet above the roof. Now they can have three overhead service drops feeding the entire building because by some state's standards they are actually 3 seperate buildings. What is cheaper, 6 individual 200 amp meters and panels or a 1200 amp service feeding a meter bank system? As soon as you cut a hole in the demise / fire wall you now change the classification of seperate buildings.