What was replaced, the entire freezer or the compressor? And what size is this freezer that it's being plugged into a gfi? We're not talking a walk in so what's the voltage and the amps of the unit/compressor/fan?

Whats' the refrigerant type and charge? Hard start kit installed? What's it doing exactly? Is she freezing up or is she running normally and just tripping the gfi upon start up?

Why is this thing plugged into a gfi in the first place?

 

Traulsen is probably the best brand of reach-in coolers and freezers.

Did you switch brands of GFCI yet?


Roadhouse, it's required to be GFCI protected in a commercial kitchen.

 

MD, I literally just called my master electrician bud ( I always do whenever I'm on this site for info ) and he said the same thing you did concerning commercial equipment at 120v.

He also said that the gfi could be removed from the equation altogether and hard wire the freezer directly to the panel using a gfi breaker, holds better than gfi's.

Sound right?

 

He also said that the gfi could be removed from the equation altogether and hard wire the freezer directly to the panel using a gfi breaker, holds better than gfi's.

Sound right?

No. There's two problems with that. Few reach-in freezers are rated for direct wire. That's a special order reach-in. You can't compliantly direct wire a reach-in that was originally supplied with a factory cord.

Secondly, there in ZERO evidence that a GFCI breaker provides better service than a point-of-use GFCI receptacle. The same technology is inside both. Matter of fact, with the added branch circuit on the load side of a GFCI breaker, I could make a fine argument that you add even more possibilities to trip the GFCI protection.

 

Wait, this is a gfi breaker. I thought is was a gfi plug. Make certain the nuetral isn't being shared but dedicated or has that already been said too? Ack.

 

I get what you're saying, he did ask what brand and how old this unit was and I told him I don't know and he then began rambling on of the different aspects, I think he was trying to say something about what you just said about compliance, and wouldn't stop and so I hung up on him.

I'm wondering if the breaker is sized properly.

 

I'm wondering if the breaker is sized properly.

That wouldn't matter. The breaker isn't tripping. The GFCI receptacle is. The problem is on the load side of the GFCI receptacle.

Mullion heaters are a popular suspect, as is the hermetic or semi-hermetic compressor motor. The start cap is another suspect, since it seem that if they get the starting phase angle too much out of wack, it plays hell with the GFCI. I'm not sure I understand why.

The OP talks about potentially getting the manufacturer involved. This must be done, but it's going to turn into a monumental finger pointing event. The OP really needs to catch the nonconforming event that trips the GFCI on a PQA or recording scope of some sort in order to prove to the manufacturer that it's their equipment -OR- meg all parts of the equipment and not just the things the megger can "reach" with the cord unplugged when megging from the attachment cord.

Brother: Can you post the brand and model of the reach-in? I'd like to see if I can scare up a print of the thing to puzzle on.

 

A hard start kit is pretty much another capacitor. It will store enough electricity in it to start that compressor without having to pull amps from the panel so the need for that start up amp draw which is greater than running amerage will be in the hard start kit. Prevents tripping.

 

Yeah, but in this case the motor is not tripping the breaker. The GFCI is what's tripping. GFCI's do not trip on overload. Only ground faults.

 

Maybe this is obvious but I hope you at least replaced the GFCI receptacle with a new one. A lot of the older ones tripped easier in commercial kitchens. Moisture is another cause. If the freezer receptacle is low on the wall or even on the floor this can be a problem when the kitchen is mopped.

 

Eh eh, hard starts are very commonly used in brand new/replacement a/c systems, add ons.

 

Eh eh, hard starts are very commonly used in brand new/replacement a/c systems, add ons.

Now that I'm fully awake, hard start kits are used in reciprocating and not scroll compressors unless the scroll is dying of course, than a hard start can lengthen it's life but that is the only reason a hard start will be needed for a scroll compressor.

Reciprocating compressor with txv's: Thermostatic expansion valve shuts the refrigerant flow off and the refrigerant does not equalize with a reciprocating compressor thus too much load (refrigerant load) for the starting motor torque of the compressor to start (during cycles) thus the need for brand new recipricating compressors to have hard starts which usually amplify starting power by up to 500%, a few brands even more than that.

Heat pumps.

 

I know this is suppose to be an appliance guys issue. But does any one have a name of a 'good' manufacturer that sells commercial freezers that 'compatiable' with gfci breakers??

Before the questions are asked,

.

I will give you this, pretty complete pre-testing to avoid all the WELL DID YOU.....

As for my input, if you were local I'd love to hook up a recorder to the circuit. In lieu of that, see Marc's answers.

 

And an overload circuit with the added heat can and will damage the insulation.

 

Which is a big reason why I think many people mistakenly believe that GFCI's can somehow trip on overload.

 

there is some 30ma gfci breaker , this may solve the problem, gfci outlets are often too sensitive for that kind of loads

 

Yeah, but they are for equipment protection not personnel protection. There is a difference between a GFCI (6mA trip) and a GFP (30mA trip).

The fix to a tripping GFCI is not replacing it with a GFP, doing so is a lame half-assed "fix".

 

there is some 30ma gfci breaker , this may solve the problem, gfci outlets are often too sensitive for that kind of loads

No, no, no... You need to find that short!

 

Grrrr

Grrrr!! Well, this 'issue' with the freezer has stopped. Not because the 'problem' was found, but because one of the other guys decided to go ahead an put a 'NON' gfci breaker inside the panel, so now the 120 volt 'pendant' twist lock cord cap/receptacle doesn't have gfci protection. Remember this is a kitchen and this 2008 rules apply.

I did have a talk with him and he feels since its a 'twist lock' its less likely to be a risk seeing how alot of freezers are not compatable gfci. And also some of the freezers that are on 'existing' circuits that are not gfci one more wont make a difference. All I can say to him is it is a 'code' requirement even though I agree it may be less of a risk on twist locks.

GRRR is all I can say and I tell him its on his head now. I have more important battles to fight! It just seems like a 'cop' out to put it on a breaker that is non gfci protected. There is no gfci protection for this new 120v 20 amp circuit that was installed for the freezer.

Oh and before you ask the question, Yes I did show him in the code NEC 2008 where its required for commercial kitchens.

Thanks for all the input and help though.

 

I recently wired a whole basement of a cafe, no GFCI for freezers. We just can't afford needless tripping.... I also used three wire feeds with no handle ties. I love my job and love it more when it's cash.

 

I recently wired a whole basement of a cafe, no GFCI for freezers. We just can't afford needless tripping.... I also used three wire feeds with no handle ties. I love my job and love it more when it's cash.

Was the basement considered a kitchen according to the NEC definition?

The requirement for GFCI protection in 210.8(B)(2) applies to kitchens so if the freezers are not located in the kitchen then GFCI protection is most likely not required unless one of the other sections in 210.8(B) apply.

If it was a kitchen I would not want the liability of not providing the required GFCI protection.

Chris

 

I did have a talk with him and he feels since its a 'twist lock' its less likely to be a risk seeing how alot of freezers are not compatable gfci.

This is absolute BS. The UL standard for refrigeration equipment requires that all refrigeration equipment have a leakage current far less than the 4 to 6 milliamp range that will trip a Class A GFCI device. The idea that some modern fridges and freezers aren't compatible with GFCI protection is utter nonsense.

Chris

 

So you have a GFCI that is tripping, presumably a ground fault in an appliance. Lets go ahead and remove gfci protection and leave that ground fault. So the next person to come in contact with the freezer gets blasted. Wheres the logic?

When the smoke alarms go off do you disconnect them or put out the fire?

 

I've had them trip in the building when power gets restored. Just because the NEC mandates it does'nt mean it's useful. Read my post thouroghly, says nothing about the units tripping a GFI, only the constant outages.