Split the difference. Inspectors around here are pretty flexible.

 

Section 26 says panel boards must be mounted as high as possible but such that no breaker handle is more than 1.7m above finished grade.

My question for you guys who maybe have come across this is:

Is that 1.7m to installed breakers or to empty breaker slots, which could be utilized in the future?

I would say it includes blank spaces for future breakers, because the intent is to limit the height of the breaker handles so they are accessible. But your above me in Canada

 

I don't believe the NEC is specific but any ec following may get red tagged for using the spaces above the specified height so why install it that high.

 

Trying to weasel around the rules. Mounting it properly would leave the home runs a few inches short (maybe around 6 inches?).

Was hoping I could get a tall board and use the mid to lower breaker positions, thereby shifting the whole board up.

A trough/gutter box above just sucks.. But might have to be done.

 

why not just splice them in panel? Not saying it will look great, but it meets code

 

I don't get it. Home runs out the top but you want to use the bottom spaces?

 

I did that alot so as the conductors in the panel had plenty of wire if they need to be moved around. Wires coming in at the top went to the bottom breakers and those conductors entering the bottom got connected to the top breakers

 

26-402 Location of panelboards (see Appendix G)

(2) Panelboards in dwelling units shall be installed as high as possible, with no overcurrent device operating handle positioned more than 1.7m above the finished floor level

If you add a breaker and the handle is above 1.7m , it isn't up to code.

 

why not just splice them in panel? Not saying it will look great, but it meets code

You can't use a panel as a junction box in Canada. You would need a trough.

 

He means just extend them once they are inside the panel, which is perfectly fine. Its not using the panel as a junction box.

 

how many wires are short?

 

does the panel have a main breaker?

 

He means just extend them once they are inside the panel, which is perfectly fine. Its not using the panel as a junction box.

Making joints in the panel is not allowed.

 

You can extend wires, or pigtail more than one to land on one breaker.

To the OP, you already know the answer to your question. 360 max explained it perfectly.

 

I know, I was shocked too when I was told it was fine. What code rule says its not acceptable?

 

I agree you can extend a wire in a panel, 1 to 1.. No multi wire splices.

 

You can extend wires, or pigtail more than one to land on one breaker.

6-212 Wiring space in enclosures
(1) Enclosures for circuit breakers and externally operated switches shall not be used as junction boxes, troughs, or raceways for conductors feeding through or tapping off to other apparatus.
(2) Notwithstanding Subrule (1), service equipment specifically designed for accommodating current monitoring devices shall be permitted

You can't tap or make joints. Seems pretty black and white to me.

 

6-212 Wiring space in enclosures
(1) Enclosures for circuit breakers and externally operated switches shall not be used as junction boxes, troughs, or raceways for conductors feeding through or tapping off to other apparatus.
(2) Notwithstanding Subrule (1), service equipment specifically designed for accommodating current monitoring devices shall be permitted

You can't tap or make joints. Seems pretty black and white to me.

Read it again with the bolded part removed. I think that may alleviate some of the confusion.

 

6-212 Wiring space in enclosures
(1) Enclosures for circuit breakers and externally operated switches shall not be used as junction boxes, troughs, or raceways for conductors feeding through or tapping off to other apparatus.
(2) Notwithstanding Subrule (1), service equipment specifically designed for accommodating current monitoring devices shall be permitted

You can't tap or make joints. Seems pretty black and white to me.

He's not feeding the conductors through to other apparatus or a tap splice. It's fine.

 

He's not feeding the conductors through to other apparatus or a tap splice. It's fine.

Joining 2 wires together for 1 foot or 30 feet is still using it as a junction box.
If I make joints in a wire, it has to be in a junction box. Pigtails are joints. I am not seeing how this isn't using a panel as a junction box.

 

It is not feeding through. It is terminated in the panel. This has been beat to death on this forum over the years :laughing:.

 

for your reading pleasure.....http://www.electriciantalk.com/f31/joints-panels-24529/

 

Trough and make it clean. Nothing says lazy or hack like pulling a cover and finding a rats nest that could have been avoided with a little effort.

I read it as no joints in the panel. I would still try to keep the inside of the panel clean and neat. If nothing else because I wouldn't want to work in it.

 

Trough and make it clean. Nothing says lazy or hack like pulling a cover and finding a rats nest that could have been avoided with a little effort.

I read it as no joints in the panel. I would still try to keep the inside of the panel clean and neat. If nothing else because I wouldn't want to work in it.

youll make a great inspector some day. joints in panels are legal yet you dislike the idea so much you insist it is illegal

 

theres nothing like finding a joint in a panel.

 

youll make a great inspector some day. joints in panels are legal yet you dislike the idea so much you insist it is illegal

Nothing more fun than opening a panel, finding a rats nest, trying to move crap to pop a K.O. And a wire nut falls off.
Is it legal? I guess I am wrong and it is. I can admit that. Does it make it a good idea? Probably not.

 

It amazes me that people actually think it is wrong, or unprofessional to have a splice inside an electrical enclosure.

Based on what you have said I have to assume you do not approve of splices inside junction boxes either as they can be rats nests and have wirenuts that fall off.

 

It amazes me that people actually think it is wrong, or unprofessional to have a splice inside an electrical enclosure.

Based on what you have said I have to assume you do not approve of splices inside junction boxes either as they can be rats nests and have wirenuts that fall off.

Not at all. The panel is one thing that should be neat and safe to work in. That's why you have junctions boxes and troughs, splitters and what not. When I open a box for 347v lighting, and I can hear the lid creaking and flexing, I expect to find a rats nest. Just not in a panel. That's always been my opinion, because I have never personally had no choice but to do it.

I thought code supported that, I admitted I was wrong. My opinion won't change. I think it looks crappy and can potentially be unsafe. You are amazed that spmeone wants to be safer and neater.
Again, my opinion. Argue all you like, but if I can avoid it, I will. You won't. That's your call to make. Just like not doing it is mine.

 

I agree with you, it can be unsafe, and does look unprofessional. I'll only do it as a last resort.

 

This topic raises a question.

I changed out a CDP with about 20 conduits in the top with no room for a splitter. So, I spliced several feeders in the panel. It isn't reasonable to re-pull a hundred of feet of feeders to avoid 3 splices. Not my preference, but an insulink isn't real ugly.

I think there are adapters for oversized conductors that reduce the size to fit into a breaker. That seems like a splice, too.

If splices are legal, then can we up-size our conductors inside the panel to meet the temperature rating of the breaker under the new code? Maybe there is an adapter for this.

 

I have done this in a CDP, but going the other way. It was in a campground and we had to account for massive voltage drop. Used Burndy sleeves and stepped the wires down a few sizes to fit into the breakers. Inspector had no problem with it.

 

What the heck happened in here, took 2 days to put new floor down in my house and come back to this!

Lol

Yes we're allowed to splice in a panel in Canada. But thats not my problem. Its where the sheaths & armor are stripped and theres no length to pull the cables down.

So if i use the mid to lower part of a panel at 1.7m, that will push the entire panel UP, the top will be at say, ~2.2m.. Which is where the cables need to enter the panel. The wires actually have lots of length to them, so they will reach down low, but they need to enter high.

I just wanted to know if CEC means highest INSTALLED breaker at 1.7m or highest POSSIBLE breaker at 1.7m. I'm thinking they mean installed... But noone can put breakers higher in the future, unless they change the code... Which is very probably!

 

I would say clear it with your inspector if you insist on going ahead with it.
You could swap the guts from a smaller panel, that way the bus wouldn't go over 1.7 metres. That will cost you an extra panel though. Depending on the manufacturer you could modify the existing bus and make it shorter.

 

On panel swaps I often end up with a breaker higher than code specifies but a new install and a rework of an existing panel are usually looked at differently by the inspector. If you're nervous about getting called on it, ask the inspector first and you'll probably find he's ok with you putting the panel as low as possible, without refeeding anything. ...Steve