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Person electrocuted, 4 others hurt including children

7.9K views 83 replies 22 participants last post by  brother  
#1 ·
#8 ·
What do you think caused this? it appears to be alot of electrocutions lately.


clearly people in charge of the area that had no idea of the electrical installation and maintenance required any time electricity is involved
not to mention electricity and water
regardless of any signs

public areas are supposed to be monkey proof these days, no matter what signs you put up
unfortunately the safest thing to do would be not build anything in public .... even safer , dont own anything in public
 
#10 ·
I asked my community pool people " When was the last time you tested the GFCI's for the line voltage pool lights? Never was the answer How often do you test the water chemistry? 2 times a day unless there is a lot of people then 3 times. And you have never tested the circuits feeding the lighting? No
Why are the lights on in the day time? It looks better. Can you turn the lights off so I can use the pool. No it is policy. I ceased using the pool and spa
 
#23 ·
I would agree with the statement about pool guys wiring the pools or at least the bonding. Working for the homeowner, I did a pool last spring where the pool company was doing the bonding. Right in front of the homeowner I said to keep away from the electric. He was using split bolts for the rebar and not installing the #8 insulated green in the PVC for the pool light. He did not ring the pool with the equipotential #8. Nor did he pick up both stanchions for the diving board. His electrician covers him for his work. How do these things get passed?
 
#16 ·
Just curious, what would be the proper methodology to test an equipotential bonding grid for functionality?

Just using an ohmmeter could prove the low near zero resistance, but w/out a bit of a current, I would not be positive that it (EBG) is functional.

Thoughts? Do they make test equipment specifically for this? Is there a testing protocol? IDK.
 
#77 ·
Just curious, what would be the proper methodology to test an equipotential bonding grid for functionality?

Just using an ohmmeter could prove the low near zero resistance, but w/out a bit of a current, I would not be positive that it (EBG) is functional.

Thoughts? Do they make test equipment specifically for this? Is there a testing protocol? IDK.
EPRI, IEEE and Mike Holt have ideas but they dontappear to be good enough for legislators.
 
#17 ·
I guess in a few more code cycles someone will come up with a voltage detector that would have sensors at different parts of the EBG (including the water, maybe the bottom of the pool) that would be able to detect a voltage gradient.

I bet someone is already working on it.
 
#19 ·
There are several tools available my favorite is the AMEC 6416 (current model). Most experience with this product.
Others make similar tools, Meggar, Amprobe, etc


No one makes a Flexi CT or low ohm CT for a DMM. That I am aware of. If you know of one please let me know. I have several CT's for measuring current up to 3000 amps. What I want is one that will read ground resistance.

You can do this kind of work with a 3 or 4 point meter. Takes longer and sometimes the readings can get confusing if there is a lot of metal piping in the area. Most electricians do not know how to set up a 3-4 point tester. Nor do they know what the readings mean. I got this shoved down my throat while I was working for a university that was on an old river delta. We were constantly chasing ghosts and problems until we realized that the grounding sucked. Fixed that and a lot of the ghosts went away.
 
#81 ·
No one makes a Flexi CT or low ohm CT for a DMM. That I am aware of.
I use an AEMC microprobe which has a flex loop with my Fluke 77. I also use it on my Hioki recording scope to check waveforms.

I also have the Fluke ground tester.

I use these to check ground gradients and grids for armored SWER systems, antenna RF grounds, and single point ground systems.

While not completely like pools and fountains, the concepts carry.

NETA has certifications which cover grid testing.
 
#22 ·
I am skeptical of any product that claims to measure small amounts of electricity. Reading the poop sheet there is nothing about any testing agency having tested it or that it was built to a standard that we all can look up.
I find it interesting that the device can not be used in a fiberglass vessel. Because of the insulating properties of fiberglass. Interesting statement to my mind.


Max Electricity Withstand in Water 120V AC (Measurement Category II) I am not sure what this measurement category means. Could be they just did not want to say Cat II.

google provided this
What is measurement category CAT II?

CAT II is defined as local-level electrical distribution, such as a standard mains socket and plug-in loads. This category includes household appliances, such as washing machines, and portable plug-in power tools.

I am back to what I know and would not trust my life to a $200 device. Water and living creatures is a good time to get out my tools and do a test. Just to be safe.
 
#24 ·
You know the answer. Most residential inspectors are only interested if the structure can fail. Performance and or testing is not part of the code. Does not help when NEC 250 is written at grade 11. I stood in front of a Code panel and asked for 250 to be rewritten for grade 7 or 8. I was told told the NEC is not a teaching document.
 
#25 ·
Inspections can be time consuming. People do not want to wait weeks for one to show up. How many trips does an inspector have to make for a pool? Two, three, maybe four? That's a $1,000.00 inspection fee and try to pass that cost on.

Some laborers are just that, laborers. "What's this wire for? I don't know, just cut it and put the wire mesh for the concrete down. The truck is on the way." Next thing the concrete is poured around the pool and nothing is bonded. That happened to me more than once.

Many electricians resent taking any type of code classes so they don't keep up with things. Many employees are apathetic and take little pride in their work. There are many reasons for errors or missing items.
 
#27 · (Edited)
You could use the testers that are used for sub stations. But most would not pay for them. NEC or someone would have to mandate the use of this type of instrument in order to work on pools. IMO probably good idea.
Inspections can be time consuming. People do not want to wait weeks for one to show up. How many trips does an inspector have to make for a pool? Two, three, maybe four? That's a $1,000.00 inspection fee and try to pass that cost on.

Some laborers are just that, laborers. "What's this wire for? I don't know, just cut it and put the wire mesh for the concrete down. The truck is on the way." Next thing the concrete is poured around the pool and nothing is bonded. That happened to me more than once.

Many electricians resent taking any type of code classes so they don't keep up with things. Many employees are apathetic and take little pride in their work. There are many reasons for errors or missing items.
Considering to become an electrical inspector, you have to inspect two pools at least in your first year. Min 16 items at pre pour inspection, that are to be checked which obviously includes the equipotential bond. Than an additional 30 items at post pour. IMO much of the problem is in the inspection process and lack of giving a chit.
 
#30 ·
How about a floating detector which is effectively a volt meter looking for >10VAC gradient?

And put a damned siren on the thing. That stupid flashing red light isn't enough to tell people to get the hell out of the water. You could even add a bluetooth radio to shunt the pool circuit.
 
#31 ·
I dont usually say much to people in the stores but a guy was helping a diy type and they were trying to figure out how to wire a spa in the aisle. Trying to decide what voltage it was. I said,,, wow,,, the guy from the hardware alley is helping a guy wire a tot tub he and family is going to climb in to. This is not a first time diy job.
 
#32 ·
One other time,, we had an outage and decided wtf, will go shopping. In the store my neighbor is there trying to buy stuff to backfeed. I suggested to him that he really needed to get some help, this isnt for a first timer wire job. When he walked away I told the store guy if he does this and there is an incident I am calling the state police and mentioning the help and instruction he got at this store.
 
#33 ·
We had incident in a city marina where young guy was electrocuted,,, said no swimming. I looked at the equipment, a bunch of shoddy old stuff that would have been condemned with simple visual inspection. Looked at similar down the street, even after that incident and suits still hadnt been maintained.