What kind of wire do I need to run for residential cameras? Cat 5? Rg-59? ENT? System would be integrated with an intrusion alarm system but the system is not picked out yet.
MTW
Personally I would pull a Cat5 or Cat6 to everything. There are HD cameras available for all areas of usage(industrial, commercial and residential) and the pricing is such that virtually no one buys any other type now. The cameras can also get powered via POE with a Cat5
Anything that is being installed on the exterior of the home in a colder climate then include a 2c #18 low voltage wire. Some of those exterior cams need additional power.
Anything that is being installed on the exterior of the home in a colder climate then include a 2c #18 low voltage wire. Some of those exterior cams need additional power.
The Honeywell Lynx system will work with their IP Total Connect cameras and they can be wired or wireless. They hardwire with cat 5 or Cat 6
If i catch any of ya'll running analog cameras or roughing in for analog I'll come and chop your hands off. Hell if I catch any cat5e being run ill chop a finger off. All trade recommendations are saying Cat6 minimum now. The price difference between cat5e and Cat6 is nominal at this point and if you all start installing cat6 and people stop using cat5e it'll continue to go down. We're installing Cat6a now.
The nice thing is about cat cable is even if you for some reason HAD to use an analog system you can put baluns on cat cable and connect analog cameras. They do make converters to actually go from RG59 to IP however there's no reason to use those unless it's an old system.
So install yourself some Cat cable to the camera locations and you'll be good to go. Actually all the cameras we install even with the heaters are still able to run it over PoE but I suppose it depends on the camera. So it can't hurt to run the additional power cable.
The nice thing is about cat cable is even if you for some reason HAD to use an analog system you can put baluns on cat cable and connect analog cameras. They do make converters to actually go from RG59 to IP however there's no reason to use those unless it's an old system.
So install yourself some Cat cable to the camera locations and you'll be good to go. Actually all the cameras we install even with the heaters are still able to run it over PoE but I suppose it depends on the camera. So it can't hurt to run the additional power cable.
I just did that. This thread titled POE IP Cameras...
http://www.electriciantalk.com/f10/poe-ip-cameras-88545/
Used Cat5e cause that's what I had. Had to educate myself a bit as I was confused on how to power up the cable but I'm smart now.
Going to buy 100 or so of those Foscam cameras, change the signage on my truck and 'have at her'. :thumbup:
Edit:
- I'll buy some Cat6 cable
- Foscam USA would work for you maybe...
http://foscam.us/poe-ip-cameras.html/
http://www.electriciantalk.com/f10/poe-ip-cameras-88545/
Used Cat5e cause that's what I had. Had to educate myself a bit as I was confused on how to power up the cable but I'm smart now.
Going to buy 100 or so of those Foscam cameras, change the signage on my truck and 'have at her'. :thumbup:
Edit:
- I'll buy some Cat6 cable
- Foscam USA would work for you maybe...
http://foscam.us/poe-ip-cameras.html/
I agree with Edrick on the analog cameras, they are "legacy" items today. However, you might consider adding coaxial-Siamese cable because you never know what sort of kludge system might get installed.
I doubt you want to be accused of running "the wrong cable". Cost might not be objectionable and labor will be minimal. Of course, you'll get "Why did he do that" but your answer would be "Since you couldn't tell me which type, I covered both types".
"If you don't have a plan, you're planning to fail."
Regards!
I doubt you want to be accused of running "the wrong cable". Cost might not be objectionable and labor will be minimal. Of course, you'll get "Why did he do that" but your answer would be "Since you couldn't tell me which type, I covered both types".
"If you don't have a plan, you're planning to fail."
Regards!
Cat6 is better but it will work just fine but I would still run an 18/2 to the exterior locations as well.
I'd use up that cat 5e for a residence no problem.
I installed a few miles of it in an office tower over two floors. That was a few years ago. Folks there are happy as pigs in clean environment.
A couple of years ago, same thing for a guys house. He had a H-on for fiber but just wanted conduits. I suspect he is happy as pigs in a clean environment with his original cat5e and empty conduits.
But if you run out keep everyone happy and buy cat6. Me I'll be looking for sales on cat5. << damn, more fingers coming off.
I installed a few miles of it in an office tower over two floors. That was a few years ago. Folks there are happy as pigs in clean environment.
A couple of years ago, same thing for a guys house. He had a H-on for fiber but just wanted conduits. I suspect he is happy as pigs in a clean environment with his original cat5e and empty conduits.
But if you run out keep everyone happy and buy cat6. Me I'll be looking for sales on cat5. << damn, more fingers coming off.
Hey Edrick, side question for you.
Many of the sparkies around my area just charge $20/drop for phone and I always home run everything but of course they loop. I usually end up switching a jack or two over to net in the long run of the house but cat5e is hard enough to justify for $20/line. I only run them so I can also do net and coax where I need as builders want all that done by one person and I can pull an entire room at once. Are you running phone in resi as cat6 or 5e? Do you see it possible in any way? I use Honeywell cable for what it's worth.
Many of the sparkies around my area just charge $20/drop for phone and I always home run everything but of course they loop. I usually end up switching a jack or two over to net in the long run of the house but cat5e is hard enough to justify for $20/line. I only run them so I can also do net and coax where I need as builders want all that done by one person and I can pull an entire room at once. Are you running phone in resi as cat6 or 5e? Do you see it possible in any way? I use Honeywell cable for what it's worth.
be mindful that PoE specification is 100m, if you run past that without a repeater of some sort and have failures, your support call to the camera manufacture will end there.
There are plenty of cheep PoE cameras out there, but the NVRs are pricey and the picture/lenses on the cheep ones are not good. + megapixal cameras eat hard drive space for lunch. There are still a lot of applications where a good analog camera is the correct choice. Also, if they want PTZ, you are going to want a power supply local to the camera.
There are plenty of cheep PoE cameras out there, but the NVRs are pricey and the picture/lenses on the cheep ones are not good. + megapixal cameras eat hard drive space for lunch. There are still a lot of applications where a good analog camera is the correct choice. Also, if they want PTZ, you are going to want a power supply local to the camera.
PoE also runs over gigabit. So saying that because you're using PoE limits you to 100mbit is incorrect. Thus using cat5e would still not be recomended. What it comes down to is guys saying oh well the device doesn't even come close to using the limits of the cable!
Give it a few years and a device will use the limitations. Cat5e has been defunct for years now. Why install a cable that for very little difference in cost can cause issues down the road? Especially if you are covering it in sheet rock and can't change it easily. It just makes no sense to me. If you're really hurting that much that the cost of cat5e vs cat6 is eating into your profit either you're pricing the job wrong or you're buying from the wrong place.
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Give it a few years and a device will use the limitations. Cat5e has been defunct for years now. Why install a cable that for very little difference in cost can cause issues down the road? Especially if you are covering it in sheet rock and can't change it easily. It just makes no sense to me. If you're really hurting that much that the cost of cat5e vs cat6 is eating into your profit either you're pricing the job wrong or you're buying from the wrong place.
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Link to gig PoE specification please.
FYI, CAT5e is rated to 1gig, CAT6 is rated to 10gig, Have you ever had a customer that had 10gig equipment? If not, running cat6 to 1gig nics is like running #6 to 20 amp duplex receptacles.
How often do you certify your Cat5e installs and know for sure they will do gigabit? Other than just the computer saying oh hey I'm connected at gigabit. Because more often than not it may report gigabit on the computer but the cable will fail at actual throughput.
Edit: Actually what am I saying all you guys should keep installing Cat5e because I'm making bank ripping it out and replacing it when it can't handle the speeds.
"10BASE-T and 100BASE-TX Ethernet use only two pairs of wire in 4-pair CAT5/CAT5e/CAT6 cable, leaving the other two pairs free to transmit power for Power over Ethernet (PoE) applications. However, Gigabit Ethernet or 1000BASE-T uses all four pairs of wires, leaving no pairs free for power. So how can PoE work over Gigabit Ethernet?
The answer is through the use of phantom power—power sent over the same wire pairs used for data. When the same pair is used for both power and data, the power and data transmissions don’t interfere with each other. Because electricity and data function at opposite ends of the frequency spectrum, they can travel over the same cable. Electricity has a low frequency of 60 Hz or less, and data transmissions have frequencies that can range from 10 million to 100 million Hz.
10- and 100-Mbps PoE may also use phantom power. The 802.3af PoE standard for use with 10BASE-T and 100BASE-TX defines two methods of power transmission. In one method, called Alternative A, power and data are sent over the same pair. In the other method, called Alternative B, two wire pairs are used to transmit data, and the remaining two pairs are used for power. That there are two different PoE power-transmission schemes isn’t obvious to the casual user because PoE Powered Devices (PDs) are made to accept power in either format."
That information is from Blackbox.com; http://www.blackbox.com/Store/Results.aspx/Networking/PoE/n-4294953056
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Edit: Actually what am I saying all you guys should keep installing Cat5e because I'm making bank ripping it out and replacing it when it can't handle the speeds.
"10BASE-T and 100BASE-TX Ethernet use only two pairs of wire in 4-pair CAT5/CAT5e/CAT6 cable, leaving the other two pairs free to transmit power for Power over Ethernet (PoE) applications. However, Gigabit Ethernet or 1000BASE-T uses all four pairs of wires, leaving no pairs free for power. So how can PoE work over Gigabit Ethernet?
The answer is through the use of phantom power—power sent over the same wire pairs used for data. When the same pair is used for both power and data, the power and data transmissions don’t interfere with each other. Because electricity and data function at opposite ends of the frequency spectrum, they can travel over the same cable. Electricity has a low frequency of 60 Hz or less, and data transmissions have frequencies that can range from 10 million to 100 million Hz.
10- and 100-Mbps PoE may also use phantom power. The 802.3af PoE standard for use with 10BASE-T and 100BASE-TX defines two methods of power transmission. In one method, called Alternative A, power and data are sent over the same pair. In the other method, called Alternative B, two wire pairs are used to transmit data, and the remaining two pairs are used for power. That there are two different PoE power-transmission schemes isn’t obvious to the casual user because PoE Powered Devices (PDs) are made to accept power in either format."
That information is from Blackbox.com; http://www.blackbox.com/Store/Results.aspx/Networking/PoE/n-4294953056
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To add to the conversation, I do probably work in a different arena than most. My work almost never deals with the regular corporate or regular consumer market. I deal with Production House for Film and TV, Music Production Facilities, Theaters, Live Venues, etc... Where we use fiber to the desktop or bonded gigabit ethernet or 10g or not even just for ethernet transmission but video and audio baluns, zero latency video feeds, etc..
or the home owners who want the latest and greatest in their house.
I'm changing the debate.
New debate anyone who runs copper to the field is hack. Fiber all the way baby! -thumbs up-
or the home owners who want the latest and greatest in their house.
I'm changing the debate.
New debate anyone who runs copper to the field is hack. Fiber all the way baby! -thumbs up-
There is no reasoning with you, go ahead and waste money on cat 6 to cameras, falsify certification on runs over 100m and go to blackbox.com for bailing wire and JB wield to fix it when it doesn't work. It' your business, do as you like.
I actually don't rob my customers blind as many people have already stated the cost difference between the two is so small that there's really no difference.
The point you continue to miss regardless of if cat5e will do gigabit or if they were both created around the same time is that cat6 no matter which way you cut it, is the better of the two. It supports faster speeds for FUTURE changes in technology. Numerous studies, reports, companies, manufacturers and people say so.
Why would you install Cat5e for phone when Cat3 supports phone?
I'm not even sure what point you're arguing. If you read I said go ahead and use cat5e for cameras already. You came in here guns blazing that there's no need for cat6 and its just a rip off. But you seem to flip flop on what point you're trying to make. There was never a debate about wether cat5e would be fine for a camera.
It seems someone is taking this personally and it's not me So at this point I'm going to bow out of responding to you. If anyone else would like to have a discussion about it like reasonable people I'm all for it!
The point you continue to miss regardless of if cat5e will do gigabit or if they were both created around the same time is that cat6 no matter which way you cut it, is the better of the two. It supports faster speeds for FUTURE changes in technology. Numerous studies, reports, companies, manufacturers and people say so.
Why would you install Cat5e for phone when Cat3 supports phone?
I'm not even sure what point you're arguing. If you read I said go ahead and use cat5e for cameras already. You came in here guns blazing that there's no need for cat6 and its just a rip off. But you seem to flip flop on what point you're trying to make. There was never a debate about wether cat5e would be fine for a camera.
Never mind not even worth it, I'm going to go do something more exciting. You have yourself a good night let me know what Fox news has on later.
It seems someone is taking this personally and it's not me
So at this point I'm going to bow out of responding to you. If anyone else would like to have a discussion about it like reasonable people I'm all for it!Alright, enough of the bickering. The argument between you two is unnecessary and irrelevant, so knock it off.
That said, MY position is that CAT 6 is overkill for 99.99% of surveillance camera installations. Even digital cinema can handle CAT5e for the audio and 2k resolution video information. (To be fair it is rarely run in lengths over 10 meters, and 4k systems specify CAT6.)
As for the cost difference between CAT 5e and CAT6, on smaller jobs where the lines are known to be used ONLY for surveillance cameras, I would maybe use CAT6 IF that was what I had in the truck.
For a larger job where we are talking tens of thousands of feet of cable, AND CAT5e would be adequate for the system, I would use CAT5e and not worry about it.
The system I am putting in my house is the Harbor Freight special and uses the coax/power cable. And I am not going to waste money running CAT5e cable alongside..I will be dead or moved out before it would be an issue to repairs/changes.
That said, MY position is that CAT 6 is overkill for 99.99% of surveillance camera installations. Even digital cinema can handle CAT5e for the audio and 2k resolution video information. (To be fair it is rarely run in lengths over 10 meters, and 4k systems specify CAT6.)
As for the cost difference between CAT 5e and CAT6, on smaller jobs where the lines are known to be used ONLY for surveillance cameras, I would maybe use CAT6 IF that was what I had in the truck.
For a larger job where we are talking tens of thousands of feet of cable, AND CAT5e would be adequate for the system, I would use CAT5e and not worry about it.
The system I am putting in my house is the Harbor Freight special and uses the coax/power cable. And I am not going to waste money running CAT5e cable alongside..I will be dead or moved out before it would be an issue to repairs/changes.
Based on his cost of 110k for cat6 vs 70k for cat5e he would be spending 36.4% more.
That being said, one supplier we paid $7 per jack for cat6 another supplier for the same jack we paid $4.50. So it all depends on quantity, supplier, relationships, etc...
Since we just buy cat6 and just stock only that the cost difference is far less for us.
That being said, one supplier we paid $7 per jack for cat6 another supplier for the same jack we paid $4.50. So it all depends on quantity, supplier, relationships, etc...
Since we just buy cat6 and just stock only that the cost difference is far less for us.
I think for some of this whole debate, it can come down to a few simple solutions.
Use the best practice to future proof something. Keeping price in mind, it might be $20.00 or so spool more for Cat 6, so go for it.
I try to always go above, more is usually better, more jacks, more room for expansion etc. Sometimes budget really dictates what is being done, but often you can do things better and still come out ahead financially.
If the customer is a) a paying customer :thumbsup: and b) likely to be there for a while, explain why upgrading to this has a better chance of having a long service life.
For most situations, the real difference between Cat 5E and Cat6 cable is not going to be really noticeable unless there is a significant length of cable being run, then again, is Cat 5E the right cable?
I would highly advise anyone running a new system not to run it solely on Coax with a Siamese cable. I have done those, and have seen the good / bad /ugly.
Even if they are not going to use the latest cameras, they don't last that long, think of how happy the customer will be in 3-5 years when they want to upgrade, and you already ran Cat5E / 6, and can now do the POE and see how great the improvement is, while having no disruption in running new lines. They will remember your wisdom and hopefully either call you back for that upgrade / or recommend you to others. That is why you are in business right?
The other thing I try to do is run the wire in conduit to protect it from interference, and then I can also run an extra pull line. It amazes me how often people won't leave a pull line. Then again, I have seen so many things that make you go:no::no:.
Remember, there was a time when BNC was the best for networking and no one ever thought it would be required for faster / better cable and workmanship.
You can never really future proof whatever you install, you can just make your best educated guess. Keep up on industry trends, best practices etc. Most customers who are interested in better practices tend to be willing to pay a little more, don't gouge, but at least give people the choice. The longer you do this, and the better you listen to the customer, the happier they will be. I did one job recently, where after reading the plans, talking to the customer, I went, I think the office would likely need an extra jack here, and here, and here. So I just ran them, figured it was an extra 20.00 in materials. On trim out, sure enough, can we add a jack here, and here. No problem, I already figured that you would want that, so I made provision for it. Small change order, customer very happy.
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Use the best practice to future proof something. Keeping price in mind, it might be $20.00 or so spool more for Cat 6, so go for it.
I try to always go above, more is usually better, more jacks, more room for expansion etc. Sometimes budget really dictates what is being done, but often you can do things better and still come out ahead financially.
If the customer is a) a paying customer :thumbsup: and b) likely to be there for a while, explain why upgrading to this has a better chance of having a long service life.
For most situations, the real difference between Cat 5E and Cat6 cable is not going to be really noticeable unless there is a significant length of cable being run, then again, is Cat 5E the right cable?
I would highly advise anyone running a new system not to run it solely on Coax with a Siamese cable. I have done those, and have seen the good / bad /ugly.
Even if they are not going to use the latest cameras, they don't last that long, think of how happy the customer will be in 3-5 years when they want to upgrade, and you already ran Cat5E / 6, and can now do the POE and see how great the improvement is, while having no disruption in running new lines. They will remember your wisdom and hopefully either call you back for that upgrade / or recommend you to others. That is why you are in business right?
The other thing I try to do is run the wire in conduit to protect it from interference, and then I can also run an extra pull line. It amazes me how often people won't leave a pull line. Then again, I have seen so many things that make you go:no:
:no:.Remember, there was a time when BNC was the best for networking and no one ever thought it would be required for faster / better cable and workmanship.
You can never really future proof whatever you install, you can just make your best educated guess. Keep up on industry trends, best practices etc. Most customers who are interested in better practices tend to be willing to pay a little more, don't gouge, but at least give people the choice. The longer you do this, and the better you listen to the customer, the happier they will be. I did one job recently, where after reading the plans, talking to the customer, I went, I think the office would likely need an extra jack here, and here, and here. So I just ran them, figured it was an extra 20.00 in materials. On trim out, sure enough, can we add a jack here, and here. No problem, I already figured that you would want that, so I made provision for it. Small change order, customer very happy.
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Cat 7
Any of you guys install any Cat 7. I did about 60 runs in a assisted living home. I have no idea why Cat 7 was specd.We had a 6 hr. course on installing, Taught by Seimmons.
Any of you guys install any Cat 7. I did about 60 runs in a assisted living home. I have no idea why Cat 7 was specd.We had a 6 hr. course on installing, Taught by Seimmons.
Usually cat6 has just the 4 pairs in it, sometimes a plastic piece separating 2 pairs from the other two pairs. Cat6e will have a plastic divider separating all 4 pairs. Cat6a has a shield around each pair, a plastic divider separating all 4 pairs, then another shield around the whole cable assemby. Cat6 or 6e 1gbps. Cat6a 10gbps. And that's only if installed per the proper standards.
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